Licence free, What is an air rifle, What is a pistol?

[harvey_s]

I think it actually is below 6ft lbs, I'm going to have a go at making a sock to fit it though!!

If the 300mm barrel and 600mm overall was the criteria then it's actually within those parameters!!


This is a 24"/600mm rule..



John

If it's under 6 FPE you can call it Shirley for all the difference its makes...

[johnbaz]

If it's under 6 FPE you can call it Shirley for all the difference its makes...

'And don't call me Shirley'!!




John

[SuffolkRifle]

I'm not positive on the ruling, but I do know that all Mk1 Vermys sold by ASI had 300mm barrels fitted, rather than the 'standard' 295mm ones (think that I had the last Mk1 imported & I had to wait for the replacement barrel) as the owner wouldn't allow them to go out with the standard ones.

[Turnup]

Been following this discussion with interest. A careful think leads me to here:

The "Guidance..." wording is reproduced here

2.46 The Rules provide that any air weapon is ‘specially dangerous’ if it is capable of
discharging a missile so that the missile has, on being discharged from the muzzle of the
weapon, kinetic energy in excess, in the case of an air pistol, of 6 foot lbs or, in the case
of an air weapon other than an air pistol, 12 foot lbs. An air rifle with a muzzle energy in
excess of 12 foot lbs must be held on a firearm certificate. Any air pistol which either has a
barrel less than 30cm in length or is less than 60cm in length overall, with a muzzle energy
in excess of 6 foot lbs is a prohibited firearm.

This statement makes no attempt to define air pistol or air rifle. It is simply states that an over power air rifle becomes S1. It further states that an over power air pistol which fails to meet the 30/60 rule (note that this is the criteria for S1) becomes S5. This is because it does not get the sub 6 exemption and it is a "small firearm"

This raises the intriguing possibility of an over 6ft-lb air pistol which does meet the 30/60 rule is therefore not a small firearm and thus eligible for S1 status!. I further suspect that the awkward wording is an attempt to conceal the possibility of an S1 air pistol.

Not at all clear to me why anyone would want a S1 air pistol or even if such a thing exists.

[angrybear]

Been following this discussion with interest. A careful think leads me to here:

The "Guidance..." wording is reproduced here



This statement makes no attempt to define air pistol or air rifle. It is simply states that an over power air rifle becomes S1. It further states that an over power air pistol which fails to meet the 30/60 rule (note that this is the criteria for S1) becomes S5. This is because it does not get the sub 6 exemption and it is a "small firearm"

This raises the intriguing possibility of an over 6ft-lb air pistol which does meet the 30/60 rule is therefore not a small firearm and thus eligible for S1 status!. I further suspect that the awkward wording is an attempt to conceal the possibility of an S1 air pistol.

Not at all clear to me why anyone would want a S1 air pistol or even if such a thing exists.

It clearly DOES define what an air pistol is it is an "Air Weapon" with a max of 6fpe which does not have either a barrel length of 300mm OR an overall length of 600mm.

That is crystal clear because an "Air Pistol" over 6fpe is section 5 prohibited ,
and the quote you have put up clearly states that if it is over 6fpe but has EITHER a 300mm barrel OR is 600mm overall it is NOT prohibited
Therefore either a 300mm barrel or an overall 600mm makes it NOT an "Air Pistol"

Note the quote does not use the term "Air Rifle" at all, (except in reference to sect 1) it says "Air Pistol" or "Air Weapon other than a pistol" so those are the only two definitions that matter (under legal limit)

How can you not understand what is written in Queens English right in front of your face ???

[RobF]

It clearly DOES define what an air pistol is it is an "Air Weapon" with a max of 6fpe which does not have either a barrel length of 300mm OR an overall length of 600mm.

That is crystal clear because an "Air Pistol" over 6fpe is section 5 prohibited ,
and the quote you have put up clearly states that if it is over 6fpe but has EITHER a 300mm barrel OR is 600mm overall it is NOT prohibited
Therefore either a 300mm barrel or an overall 600mm makes it NOT an "Air Pistol"

Note the quote does not use the term "Air Rifle" at all, it says "Air Pistol" or "Air Weapon other than a pistol" so those are the only two definitions that matter.

How can you not understand what is written in Queens English right in front of your face ???

It doesn't say that.

All elephants are grey, not all grey things are elephants. No where does it define what an air pistol is. It's really that simple.

[Turnup]

It clearly DOES define what an air pistol is it is an "Air Weapon" with a max of 6fpe which does not have either a barrel length of 300mm OR an overall length of 600mm.

That is crystal clear because an "Air Pistol" over 6fpe is section 5 prohibited ,
and the quote you have put up clearly states that if it is over 6fpe but has EITHER a 300mm barrel OR is 600mm overall it is NOT prohibited
Therefore either a 300mm barrel or an overall 600mm makes it NOT an "Air Pistol"

Note the quote does not use the term "Air Rifle" at all, (except in reference to sect 1) it says "Air Pistol" or "Air Weapon other than a pistol" so those are the only two definitions that matter (under legal limit)

How can you not understand what is written in Queens English right in front of your face ???

I think my understanding is rather better than yours.

That's not what it says. To be S5 an air pistol must be both over 6 fpe and fail one or both parts of the 300/600 rule.

[angrybear]

I think my understanding is rather better than yours.

That's not what it says. To be S5 an air pistol must be both over 6 fpe and fail one or both parts of the 300/600 rule.

No, because then it would say a barrel under 300 AND is less than 600 overall, it says "either or" so if it passes one of them it's good but still not an air pistol.

[RobF]

I think my understanding is rather better than yours.

That's not what it says. To be S5 an air pistol must be both over 6 fpe and fail one or both parts of the 300/600 rule.

Exactly.

[airgunnut]

Been following this discussion with interest. A careful think leads me to here:

The "Guidance..." wording is reproduced here



This statement makes no attempt to define air pistol or air rifle. It is simply states that an over power air rifle becomes S1. It further states that an over power air pistol which fails to meet the 30/60 rule (note that this is the criteria for S1) becomes S5. This is because it does not get the sub 6 exemption and it is a "small firearm"

This raises the intriguing possibility of an over 6ft-lb air pistol which does meet the 30/60 rule is therefore not a small firearm and thus eligible for S1 status!. I further suspect that the awkward wording is an attempt to conceal the possibility of an S1 air pistol.

Not at all clear to me why anyone would want a S1 air pistol or even if such a thing exists.

There is no such thing as a s1 air pistol, if an air pistol has its barrel and/or stock lengthened to over 60cm total length (with a barrel over 30cm) its still classed as a pistol by law, you only get into trouble when you pass the 6 foot pound mark then it goes straight to section 5 and you go straight to prison, you do not pass go.
You have seen the word Guidance, this is the problem, don't worry its not just you, police firearm licencing in different areas are the same, they interpret the laws differently but airgun power limits are set in stone, your air PISTOL regardless of the length of barrel or overall length, if over 6 ft lbs its section 5.
If you still think there is such thing as a section 1 air pistol or to clarify the definition of pistol, then call the home office and ask them0

[Turnup]

There is no such thing as a s1 air pistol, if an air pistol has its barrel and/or stock lengthened to over 60cm total length (with a barrel over 30cm) its still classed as a pistol by law, you only get into trouble when you pass the 6 foot pound mark then it goes straight to section 5 and you go straight to prison, you do not pass go.
You have seen the word Guidance, this is the problem, don't worry its not just you, police firearm licencing in different areas are the same, they interpret the laws differently but airgun power limits are set in stone, your air PISTOL regardless of the length of barrel or overall length, if over 6 ft lbs its section 5.
If you still think there is such thing as a section 1 air pistol or to clarify the definition of pistol, then call the home office and ask them0

I have no problem with a long firearm still being a pistol.

Imagine a long barrel air pistol, Barrel over 300 and overall over 600. I am perfectly prepared top concede that such a thing does not in fact exist at present, but we could make one. Agreed it is still an air pistol, just as my LBP is still a pistol.

Now up the power to 7fpe, It no longer benefits from the sub 6 exemption. It is not a small firearm so escapes S5. I can see no reason why it would not qualify under S1, in the same way that a 13 fpe air rifle qualifies under S1.

If you believe differently please help me to understand what aspect of firearms legislation would prevent such a thing being entered on a S1 certificate.

[Retracted_Yeti]

I have no problem with a long firearm still being a pistol.

Imagine a long barrel air pistol, Barrel over 300 and overall over 600. I am perfectly prepared top concede that such a thing does not in fact exist at present, but we could make one. Agreed it is still an air pistol, just as my LBP is still a pistol.
SMK do....it's called a CP2.
Now up the power to 7fpe, It no longer benefits from the sub 6 exemption. It is not a small firearm so escapes S5. I can see no reason why it would not qualify under S1, in the same way that a 13 fpe air rifle qualifies under S1o why
So why would it be S1? it's a legal?? sub 6 or 12 setup surely? thats why I bought mine??
If you believe differently please help me to understand what aspect of firearms legislation would prevent such a thing being entered on a S1 certificate.
Can't help you understand what the rest of the sodding country doesn't know!

This is gonna go in circles, I just know it!

Cheers.

Roy.

[angrybear]

I have no problem with a long firearm still being a pistol.

Imagine a long barrel air pistol, Barrel over 300 and overall over 600. I am perfectly prepared top concede that such a thing does not in fact exist at present, but we could make one. Agreed it is still an air pistol, just as my LBP is still a pistol.

Now up the power to 7fpe, It no longer benefits from the sub 6 exemption. It is not a small firearm so escapes S5. I can see no reason why it would not qualify under S1, in the same way that a 13 fpe air rifle qualifies under S1.

If you believe differently please help me to understand what aspect of firearms legislation would prevent such a thing being entered on a S1 certificate.

Because an "air weapon" has to be over 12fpe to be sect 1 also I think under S1 they are specifically identified as being Air Rifles.

To my mind your long barrelled air pistol would become an "air weapon other than an air pistol" & as such be legal up to 12fpe.

[Turnup]

I'm not positive on the ruling, but I do know that all Mk1 Vermys sold by ASI had 300mm barrels fitted, rather than the 'standard' 295mm ones (think that I had the last Mk1 imported & I had to wait for the replacement barrel) as the owner wouldn't allow them to go out with the standard ones.

There is a problem even with 300mm barrel. The legislation defines the barrel length to be measured from the point of ignition.........bit tricky for an airgun. Another strong indication that this criterion was never intended to be applied to air guns.

[greenwayjames]

I'm not positive on the ruling, but I do know that all Mk1 Vermys sold by ASI had 300mm barrels fitted, rather than the 'standard' 295mm ones (think that I had the last Mk1 imported & I had to wait for the replacement barrel) as the owner wouldn't allow them to go out with the standard ones.

That was probably done because if sold as a FAC air rifle in the UK it wouldnt need a barrel swap. I believe it was designed more for high power markets where barrel lengths on air rifles doesnt apply?