Filler Question.

[tacfoley]

tac...
i myself dont leave airspace in 577 / 450 rounds at all , weather i use betram / kynock or much larger capacity cbc cases which can swallow 120gns of bp.
i tend to use around 60gns of swiss and 3 gns of kapok.
another forum i frequent is the the british military forum where many experienced shooters shoot martinis with 85gns and air as the filler....
please check it out.....https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/...r+space#p18340

I only load .45-70 Govt, and leave no air-space at all, by using a drop-tubed load that allows of around 1/8th inch compression when loading the usual 405gr bullet. By all means continue to do what you have always done - same goes for your acquaintances and their empty spaces.

I guess I've nothing more to add to this thread.

[loiner1965]

I only load .45-70 Govt, and leave no air-space at all, by using a drop-tubed load that allows of around 1/8th inch compression when loading the usual 405gr bullet. By all means continue to do what you have always done - same goes for your acquaintances and their empty spaces.

I guess I've nothing more to add to this thread.

those who leave air spaces in bp cartridges do not do it to be different or start a trend etc..
they have read articles and books by gun makers like mr greener and others.....so its not taken lightly.
one chap i know shoots competitions all over europe and fires 1000s of rounds without incident or chamber ringing of any sort.
myself i stick to using kapok as i only shoot bp occasionally.
remember many people still use cream of wheat in bottle neck cases and dont realise they can cause case / neck separations and have been shooting that way for years without incident......pays ya money and take ya chances

[tacfoley]

those who leave air spaces in bp cartridges do not do it to be different or start a trend etc..
they have read articles and books by gun makers like mr greener and others.....so its not taken lightly.
one chap i know shoots competitions all over europe and fires 1000s of rounds without incident or chamber ringing of any sort.
myself i stick to using kapok as i only shoot bp occasionally.
remember many people still use cream of wheat in bottle neck cases and dont realise they can cause case / neck separations and have been shooting that way for years without incident......pays ya money and take ya chances

Somehow this thread seems to have degenerated into a WTF are you talking about, tac' kind of thing. I'm not disputing the wisdom in the Greener book, I have it myself. Nor the collective wisdom of the bp metallic cartridge shooters, I'm one them as well. I bleeve that the initial discussion was aimed at the likelihood of leaving a LARGE air space, say a couple of inches, or more, in a muzzleloading rifle that may, and indeed, is well-proven, to cause ringing or bursting of the barrel in which it takes place. This can happen by inadvertently short-loading and failing to push the bullet or ball down past the usual circle of crud that develops after a few shots, particularly in a patched ball load. Or shooting a squib load in the case of a percussion gun, then removing the nipple and pouring some powder into the breech without reseating the ball or bullet afterwards.

I've seen a .50cal Hawken rifle visibly bulged beginning about four inches down the barrel for a distance of around three inches in a case like that. It was the view of the gunsmith there at the time that it was only the massive construction of the barrel prevented it from busting open - right where the left hand was holding the forend. Checking the position of the bullet by using the range rod, and ensuring that it was firmly down on the charge would have spared a £750 rifle from the scrap heap.

[loiner1965]

Somehow this thread seems to have degenerated into a WTF are you talking about, tac' kind of thing. I'm not disputing the wisdom in the Greener book, I have it myself. Nor the collective wisdom of the bp metallic cartridge shooters, I'm one them as well. I bleeve that the initial discussion was aimed at the likelihood of leaving a LARGE air space, say a couple of inches, or more, in a muzzleloading rifle that may, and indeed, is well-proven, to cause ringing or bursting of the barrel in which it takes place. This can happen by inadvertently short-loading and failing to push the bullet or ball down past the usual circle of crud that develops after a few shots, particularly in a patched ball load. Or shooting a squib load in the case of a percussion gun, then removing the nipple and pouring some powder into the breech without reseating the ball or bullet afterwards.

I've seen a .50cal Hawken rifle visibly bulged beginning about four inches down the barrel for a distance of around three inches in a case like that. It was the view of the gunsmith there at the time that it was only the massive construction of the barrel prevented it from busting open - right where the left hand was holding the forend. Checking the position of the bullet by using the range rod, and ensuring that it was firmly down on the charge would have spared a £750 rifle from the scrap heap.

not at all tac.......
we are discussing fillers and what we / others are using.
for instance,
i will put one of my east india company F version on ticket so i can make the loud stick bang and asked on another forum what they recomment.
Some use 110gns of bp in a paper cartridge with a .690 ball loaded sharpe rifle style.
the legend mr Bill Curtiss suggests 120 gn of bp, then using a thick wad inserted in the muzzle then place the ball on top with loads of lube then place another thick wad on top of that, he then says using your ram rod you gently push the whole lot down the barrel on top of the powder.
Another suggested a small load of 50 gns of bp with the same amount of a filler on top. then a .730 ball with a 20 thou patch loaded on top.
we all have different ways on reaching , hopefully a safe goal.

[tacfoley]

not at all tac.......
we are discussing fillers and what we / others are using.
for instance,
i will put one of my east india company F version on ticket so i can make the loud stick bang and asked on another forum what they recomment.
Some use 110gns of bp in a paper cartridge with a .690 ball loaded sharpe rifle style.
the legend mr Bill Curtiss suggests 120 gn of bp, then using a thick wad inserted in the muzzle then place the ball on top with loads of lube then place another thick wad on top of that, he then says using your ram rod you gently push the whole lot down the barrel on top of the powder.
Another suggested a small load of 50 gns of bp with the same amount of a filler on top. then a .730 ball with a 20 thou patch loaded on top.
we all have different ways on reaching , hopefully a safe goal.

As demonstrated by Mike Beliveau on his duellist1954 YouTube channel.

[loiner1965]

seen his educational videos before.....excellent to watch
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...86&FORM=VDQVAP
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...A&&FORM=VDRVRV

[Abasmajor]

My original intent when first posting this thread, was to try and establish whether black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 typically used in muzzle loading revolvers and classed as propellants are subject to the same safety risks associated with air spaces as black powder loads when used with lighter loads in the same firearms.

I was also curious to find out if anybody had any real evidence that accuracy might be compromised if the projectile were to be seated some way below the mouth of the chamber which would be the case if a filler were not be used with a lighter load.

Although I have learned a lot from all those who have kindly taken the time to provide experienced input, I'm still not really sure if black powder substitutes can be treated in the same way as nitro powders in respect to the need for fillers or indeed if anybody has any real evidence of improved accuracy if the projectile is nearer to engaging the rifling when loading the chamber.

Any further feedback would be much appreciated.

Brian

[loiner1965]

My original intent when first posting this thread, was to try and establish whether black powder substitutes such as Pyrodex or 777 typically used in muzzle loading revolvers and classed as propellants are subject to the same safety risks associated with air spaces as black powder loads when used with lighter loads in the same firearms.

I was also curious to find out if anybody had any real evidence that accuracy might be compromised if the projectile were to be seated some way below the mouth of the chamber which would be the case if a filler were not be used with a lighter load.

Although I have learned a lot from all those who have kindly taken the time to provide experienced input, I'm still not really sure if black powder substitutes can be treated in the same way as nitro powders in respect to the need for fillers or indeed if anybody has any real evidence of improved accuracy if the projectile is nearer to engaging the rifling when loading the chamber.

Any further feedback would be much appreciated.

Brian

i find using bp with a wad as better accuracy than 777 to be honest.
777 doesnt like to be compressed as in loading in a revolver as you cannot duplicate the loading pressure consistantly.....not tried it with a loading tower although i do have one.
i found no difference if i seated closer or further away from the forcing cone but my pistol shooting is not the best anyway.....sorry for wandering off your initial question