Matching oil container for a 1926 Webley pistol would be glass?

[45flint]

When Webley & Scott Ltd introduced the Mark I air pistol in 1924, they recommended Neatsfoot oil for lubricating the leather piston and breech washers. This is evidenced by an early Component Parts List, which mentioned Webley could supply Neatsfoot oil in bottles. There was no mention of the trigger adjusting screw on the parts list so whilst undated, the item probably dates from early 1925. No example of such a bottle is known and it is possible they were never Webley branded.

The instructions found inside early carton lids for the Mark I air pistol intended for the spring clip version also referred to Neatsfoot oil.

After the Mark II pistol and Mark I rifle with their metal piston rings were introduced in 1925, a thicker lubricant such as motor oil was determined to be more suitable for lubrication of these rings. They worked on a similar principle to the internal combustion engine and Webley therefore introduced a second grade of oil. Consequently Webley oil was supplied in two grades: No 1 for leather washers and No 2 for metal piston rings.

An undated Webley advertising leaflet for No 1 and No 2 oil included a line drawing of a tall Webley branded tin with an offset screw off spout. The tin’s cap was soldered to a screw off spout at 90 degrees, so either could be used and retained together. Webley referred to it as a ‘Filler Spout’. This leaflet is the earliest reference to Webley oil tins and believed to date from after 1925 and prior to the Valvespout tins, which were patented by Parker Hale in 1931. A tin in poor external condition is known to have survived, which has a centrally located filler spout.

Hope this helps.

John M

As usual John thanks much, well done. Only thing that still puzzles me is why the instructions on the inside box lid of my early version Mark 2 Target have no mention of oil when you reference the early Mark 1s referred to neatfoots oil?

[Josie & John]

As usual John thanks much, well done. Only thing that still puzzles me is why the instructions on the inside box lid of my early version Mark 2 Target have no mention of oil when you reference the early Mark 1s referred to neatfoots oil?

Hi 45flint,

That's an interesting question. I only have one boxed Webley Mk II Target pistol and the box instructions do mention Webley No 2 oil. It is slightly later than your example and I wonder if the earliest Mk IIs were produced before Webley introduced No 1 and No 2 oil?

If possible, I would appreciate a picture of your instructions as they sound a little different to the norm.

By the way, I have also used an empty 3-in-1 bottle as it is period correct for a cased pre WW1 BSA air rifle I have.

Kind regards,

John

[Abasmajor]

Hi 45flint,

That's an interesting question. I only have one boxed Webley Mk II Target pistol and the box instructions do mention Webley No 2 oil. It is slightly later than your example and I wonder if the earliest Mk IIs were produced before Webley introduced No 1 and No 2 oil?

If possible, I would appreciate a picture of your instructions as they sound a little different to the norm.

By the way, I have also used an empty 3-in-1 bottle as it is period correct for a cased pre WW1 BSA air rifle I have.

Kind regards,

John

For what it's worth, my boxed Mk2 Target Ser No 24588 also references the use of No2 oil in the instructions pasted to the back of the box lid.

Regards
Brian

[45flint]

Hi 45flint,

That's an interesting question. I only have one boxed Webley Mk II Target pistol and the box instructions do mention Webley No 2 oil. It is slightly later than your example and I wonder if the earliest Mk IIs were produced before Webley introduced No 1 and No 2 oil?

If possible, I would appreciate a picture of your instructions as they sound a little different to the norm.

By the way, I have also used an empty 3-in-1 bottle as it is period correct for a cased pre WW1 BSA air rifle I have.

Kind regards,

John

Here are the instructions, I hope I didn’t read it incorrectly, lol. The serial number of the gun is there in pencil.

https://i.imgur.com/Qjnj4ia.jpg

[Abasmajor]

Hi,

Thanks for posting the picture.

Given that the Mk2 Target & Mk1 Ser Nos were contiguous, there probably wasn't much of a gap between the specific reference to Webley No 2 oil on my label (24588) and the lack of a specific reference on your example (21454).

Interestingly, I notice some of the other wording on the later instructions has also changed slightly from the wording in relation to your pistol.

It seems we learn something new every day.

Regards
Brian

[45flint]

Hi,

Thanks for posting the picture.

Given that the Mk2 Target & Mk1 Ser Nos were contiguous, there probably wasn't much of a gap between the specific reference to Webley No 2 oil on my label (24588) and the lack of a specific reference on your example (21454).

Interestingly, I notice the wording on the later instructions has also changed slightly from the wording in relation to your pistol.

It seems we learn something new every day.

Regards
Brian

Would make some sense that when they first produced the new piston ring system they were not yet set or possibly thought through that they would now offer two oils called 1 & 2? They couldn’t mention in the instruction something they didn’t yet offer and calling for oil would lead people to Mark 1 Neatsfoot. Seems so odd they just dropped the oil instruction since it is essential for proper functioning? Kind of makes me wonder what the earliest serial number is on the Target? Someone here mentioned they had 14154. Got Bruce’s book on the way to feed my current need for Webley trivia. Drilling down on this stuff becomes a desease with no cure! Lol

PS: maybe they didn’t mention any oil because at that time they would of had to say, 30 weight motor oil: kind of messes with their future selling of their special number 2?

[Abasmajor]

We will probably never know the exact number of Mk2 Target pistols produced, but there is an assumption that they were probably made in similar quantities to the other so called deluxe model, the Straight Grip Senior which would mean that only approximately 6000-7000 were likely to have ever been produced.

I believe I read somewhere that Ser Nos for the Mk2 target started at around 10000, so given the relatively short production period, quite a rare air pistol.

You won't regret obtaining a copy of Gordon Bruce's book by the way which represents the bible for all Webley air pistol aficionados.

Regards
Brian

[Josie & John]

Thanks for posting the image of the box instructions. Interesting the instructions just refer to "a few spots of oil" rather than any particular type.

Webley did amend the instructions for Mk 1 air pistols several times and it seems they did the same with the Mk 11 as well. That's the first example I have seen, where no particular type of oil is recommended and it stands to reason this would have been the earliest type.

On a slightly different note, you have a fine boxed Webley in the original box. Personally I would store/display the pistol with the original box rather than case it. My box is not quite as clean, so I feel somewhat envious of your very fortunate find!

Kind regards,

John

[Garvin]

Here are the instructions, I hope I didn’t read it incorrectly, lol. The serial number of the gun is there in pencil.

https://i.imgur.com/Qjnj4ia.jpg

To my mind the freshness of these instructions is more evidence of the originality of your pistol. Obviously stored in optimum conditions.

[45flint]

To my mind the freshness of these instructions is more evidence of the originality of your pistol. Obviously stored in optimum conditions.

You would make Sherlock Holmes proud, never put that together. You got me in the detective mood, if you look closely in the upper left corner there is what appears to be just a corner of a instruction booklet? in red printing that ended up adhereing to the box. I assume there was a booklet included back then? Any examples out there?

[Abasmajor]

You would make Sherlock Holmes proud, never put that together. You got me in the detective mood, if you look closely in the upper left corner there is what appears to be just a corner of a instruction booklet? in red printing that ended up adhereing to the box. I assume there was a booklet included back then? Any examples out there?

I also have the remains of what seems to be an additional warning label printed in red on the inside face of the box lid which includes the words" important" and "adjustment", so most likely a further warning emphasising the care necessary when making trigger adjustments lest it be missed during a cursory reading of the other instructions.

Regards
Brian

[Josie & John]

You would make Sherlock Holmes proud, never put that together. You got me in the detective mood, if you look closely in the upper left corner there is what appears to be just a corner of a instruction booklet? in red printing that ended up adhereing to the box. I assume there was a booklet included back then? Any examples out there?

Not quite a booklet but a warning label, as Abasmajor suggests. It warned owners not to adjust the trigger pull weight too light as that could result in a negligent discharge.

The Mk 11 originally came with a folded sheet, which advertised the pistol's best features. Coincidentally mine must have been exported to the States and back again as prices are in U.S. $. I obtained it from Troubledshooter and a scan may well be included on his excellent signature site.

Mk 1 and Mk 11 pistols were numbered concurrently from the same serial number range and the earliest number known to me presently is 10105, which was pictured in the June 1978 issue of Guns Review by Mark Newcomer.

I think you will enjoy the Gordon Bruce book.

Kind regards,

John

[Abasmajor]

I'm sure Troubledshooter won't mind me posting this link to a Webley Mk2 Target pamphlet link from his excellent site.

http://mynetimages.com/album/Trouble...l?img=e1765e8f

Brian

[Josie & John]

I've recently forwarded scans of a multi part series I wrote for Airgun World on the Webley air pistol in the USA between the wars to the Vintage Airgun Gallery to put up in due course.

I hope it adds a little more to the story of these incredible air pistols and answers some of the common questions about Stoeger Webleys as well as those distributed/sold by Hoffman and Abercrombie & Fitch.

Kind regards,

John

[45flint]

I've recently forwarded scans of a multi part series I wrote for Airgun World on the Webley air pistol in the USA between the wars to the Vintage Airgun Gallery to put up in due course.

I hope it adds a little more to the story of these incredible air pistols and answers some of the common questions about Stoeger Webleys as well as those distributed/sold by Hoffman and Abercrombie & Fitch.

Kind regards,

John

Thanks much, look forward to it. These US Webleys are a great collecting focus for someone over here. Just wish they had imported the Service rifles in equal numbers as well.