Why I am Beginning To Change My Mind About Sub12 Hunting

[Jonjon79]

Its amazing how some of you experienced hunters can predict the wind speed both where you are and at the target and predict when a animal is going to keep still and not be startled by surrounding noises and not call it luck, it must be nice to have such a high opinion of yourself

Genuine question Barry - Do you hunt? If so, what do you use?

[Barryg]

Genuine question Barry - Do you hunt? If so, what do you use?

I was a hunter but not now especially after watching Richard Dawkins explaining that animals could feel more pain than humans. For me airgunning is for fun and enjoyment. I didn't think 11 ft/lb was enough and I still don't I think hunters should be looking at 17 plus ft/lb but even then a clean kill is part luck.
secretagentmole says that I have a condescending attitude but I am the opposite I don't think that I am superior enough to make a clean kill every time without luck there are just to many variables and to me it looks the same for everyone else even though skill and experience has some advantages.

[Jonjon79]

I was a hunter but not now especially after watching Richard Dawkins explaining that animals could feel more pain than humans. For me airgunning is for fun and enjoyment. I didn't think 11 ft/lb was enough and I still don't I think hunters should be looking at 17 plus ft/lb but even then a clean kill is part luck.
secretagentmole says that I have a condescending attitude but I am the opposite I don't think that I am superior enough to make a clean kill every time without luck there are just to many variables and to me it looks the same for everyone else even though skill and experience has some advantages.

Fair comment - thanks for the answer.

[Muskett]

Genuine question Barry - Do you own a Rottweiler?

[Barryg]

Genuine question Barry - Do you own a Rottweiler?

Yes

[Muskett]

I like the breed too, but would never own one. The reason is one of my old Sergeants had them, had them thirty plus years. Loved them to pieces but always said they were like carrying a cocked pistol in public. Didn't matter how placid, kid loving they were, they could just snap. More than able to take someones arm off. He was a powerful man but admitted he would struggle if they kicked off. He was on the ball with them all the time, and very experienced reading them. His were so soppy.....

Now I'm happy for you to own a Rottweiller, and you don't have to hunt, nor be particularly keen for 12ft/lbs farmyard critter hunting, but please! I'll take responsibility for my wind call over a Rottweiler any time.
Both come with responsibility. I am sure we both are.

[krisko]

Try a .25, it has stopping power. Even at sub 12. It retains more energy than .177 or .22.
It flies 100fps+ faster than any arrow

Get a range finder too. Over 40yards you have to be hft master to kill with a .177 anyway.
.177 is for gurls lol

.177 is like driving knitting needles in and out through the animal body

I would limit the range and use larger caliber, that’s what we can do best with our power limits.
If the limit was 30 or 50, there would be the same discussion here but at different distances 100-200yards shots. Or simply about different size quarry-larger animals taken. Currently on the US forums slugs are the hot topic...
Some just want to push their limits, trying their luck all the time

[Geezer]

Try a .25, it has stopping power...

.177 is like driving knitting needles in and out through the animal body

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

[jumbuck]

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

Stick of TNT and a box of matches Works in the cowboy films

[krisko]

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

I have got 2x 177s, 2x22s and a .25. Believe me the .25 is for hunting killing animals. The others are easier to connect with the target/ shoot but that’s it.
Learn to shoot a .25 then come back here to comment.

[krisko]

Here we go again. Sigh.

There is no such thing as "stopping power". If there was, we could measure it scientifically. What we can measure are terminal ballistics. We can also medically assess wound effects. Every decent study ever done indicates that effectiveness is a combination of shot placement, energy, and the performance of the projectile in the target, which is a function of both projectile construction and things like projectile stability. With shot placement the most important factor, provided that the ballistics give a basic level of penetration.

As for the .177" "knitting needle", a knitting needle through the cerebral cortex = dead animal.

You cannot get more dead than dead. Either it is dead or not. A .177" air rifle head shot at 8ft-lbs retained energy kills a rabbit just as dead as a .50"BMG burst that cuts it literally in half.

Sorry guys, but this whole thread is getting a bit annoying. Many decades of mass experience show that a reasonable sub-12 air rifle of any type or calibre in the hands of a reasonable shooter at sensible ranges is a perfectly acceptable and humane pest control tool.

Regarding stopping power
.177 has 16mm2 crossection a .25 has double i.e 32mm2 so what do you think which will cause more damage on a shallow target? A .25 will not drill holes in metal or roofing sheets if there is a pass through, alright maybe if you want to shoot through some chicken wires, with a .177 it is going to be lower probability of clipping. Or with night vision when you have to but can’t range properly the .177 is easier a better choice

Both must hurt when you shoot yourself with, can’t make a comparison but the muzzle energy is the same, at least at the muzzle first. Later the .177 is losing big time energy at 40yards the .177 is close to 7fpe while the .25 is still around 8fpe.

[snock]

Yes

Genuine question, Barry - does your Rottweiler shoot?

[Barryg]

Genuine question, Barry - does your Rottweiler shoot?

No she is to much of a female LOL .

[wobbly bob]

In truth, Richard Dawkins cannot know what pain an animal feels. He is currently advocating the moral superiority of veganism, and seeks to bolster his argument with unfounded speculation. But if that has influenced your thinking Barry, you need to consider that in the same lecture he compares keeping animals as pets to the abhorrent practice of slavery. So it’s goodbye hunting, goodbye Rottie.

[Barryg]

In truth, Richard Dawkins cannot know what pain an animal feels. He is currently advocating the moral superiority of veganism, and seeks to bolster his argument with unfounded speculation. But if that has influenced your thinking Barry, you need to consider that in the same lecture he compares keeping animals as pets to the abhorrent practice of slavery. So it’s goodbye hunting, goodbye Rottie.

Richard Dawkins is not a Vegan but he is the University of Oxford Professor for the Public Understanding of Science and a professor of evolutionary biology. What type of people influence your thinking
If anyone is not sure what we are talking about here is a short video, what is there to disagree with?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgmjh7bh7Ks