Spring gun revival (again.....)

[Phil Russell]

Hey ho, most enjoyable thread so I thought I would add my thoughts on HFT courses etc. The first thing to say is these are thoughts and observations, not gripes as my philosophy is to turn up and shoot what has been put out with thanks to the course setters.
When I started HFT there is no doubt the courses were 'easier' with bigger kill zones at closer ranges. Then came the various revisions with smaller kill zones at longer ranges than before. This made good scores, for me, much harder ... I am only a mediocre shot but enjoy it. What I observed though was that courses became harder as there seemed to be a subconscious element of competition for course setters to set the hardest course permissible; hence small kills were set at the maximum range allowed, some shots required the skills of a gymnast to be able to see the kill ... getting more difficult for me as the years pass by. But, hey ho ... shoot what is set and enjoy it. I did notice a few newcomers getting low scores on their first or second shoots though and they were a tad disgruntled; never to be seen again. The reason for the changes to course design were, I believe, to separate the top shots and so avoid too many ties and shoot offs at the end of the day. I am not sure this was achieved?
Then there are other rules ... being allowed to rest the rifle butt on the ground? I was surprised at this being allowed as, to me, it is akin to turning a prone shot into a form of bench rest. If I was the rule maker I would stop this practice; but I am not, so am happy to accept the rule. Beanbags?? Again I would not allow them for kneeling shots; I have seen shooters with bean bags that could, for all intents and purposes be sitting on a stool. But I do not make the rules so am happy to follow what is set. Maybe if rules were changed to fit my thoughts the desire to separate the top shots would be achieved?
I stress that these are just thoughts, not gripes but I have no doubt some people will think them a whinge. As it is, I only have admiration for the 'two Petes' for all the effort they put into rule setting and organisation for HFT and happily shoot whatever is set.

Cheers, Phil

[ChrisC]

Hey ho, most enjoyable thread so I thought I would add my thoughts on HFT courses etc. The first thing to say is these are thoughts and observations, not gripes as my philosophy is to turn up and shoot what has been put out with thanks to the course setters.
When I started HFT there is no doubt the courses were 'easier' with bigger kill zones at closer ranges. Then came the various revisions with smaller kill zones at longer ranges than before. This made good scores, for me, much harder ... I am only a mediocre shot but enjoy it. What I observed though was that courses became harder as there seemed to be a subconscious element of competition for course setters to set the hardest course permissible; hence small kills were set at the maximum range allowed, some shots required the skills of a gymnast to be able to see the kill ... getting more difficult for me as the years pass by. But, hey ho ... shoot what is set and enjoy it. I did notice a few newcomers getting low scores on their first or second shoots though and they were a tad disgruntled; never to be seen again. The reason for the changes to course design were, I believe, to separate the top shots and so avoid too many ties and shoot offs at the end of the day. I am not sure this was achieved?
Then there are other rules ... being allowed to rest the rifle butt on the ground? I was surprised at this being allowed as, to me, it is akin to turning a prone shot into a form of bench rest. If I was the rule maker I would stop this practice; but I am not, so am happy to accept the rule. Beanbags?? Again I would not allow them for kneeling shots; I have seen shooters with bean bags that could, for all intents and purposes be sitting on a stool. But I do not make the rules so am happy to follow what is set. Maybe if rules were changed to fit my thoughts the desire to separate the top shots would be achieved?
I stress that these are just thoughts, not gripes but I have no doubt some people will think them a whinge. As it is, I only have admiration for the 'two Petes' for all the effort they put into rule setting and organisation for HFT and happily shoot whatever is set.

Cheers, Phil

Good post Phil and spot on. the rules/course/kit and shooting skills have all increased from when i first started.

Andy, apologies for the thread diversion.

[bozzer]

Phil

I have also always said that those that put the work in get to make the decisions ... and Amen to that.

These aren't criticisms ... just friendly chat on an internet site. The sport started as an option for folk with basic kit to have a go at tin chicken shooting on a Sunday morning, as an option to FT if they didn't want to sit to shoot and spend decent money on FT scopes. It did that. It's become a challenge for the organisers to try and balance testing the very best with top end PCPs and still making it accessible, and enjoyable for youngsters and low end shooters. It's very difficult to try and do that and have the same courses and rules for everyone. It's doing great as it is. The greatest majority that shoot it are happy and will say that there's no need to change a thing. If people want to make it tough for themselves by shooting a springer then that's up to them.

I've put courses out and spent a couple of days in all weathers prior to that weekend's shoot doing so. So, as you say, it will always be a case of turning up and being grateful for those that put the work in to make it happen, and shoot what's been provided for you.

[scutter]

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest and there has been many great points, I shall ignore the comments from the old codger (ChrisC) as in his advancing years he gets a bit confused now and then (No spring chicken) :-)

What Bozzer says is correct, on a level ground, my TX200hc will shoot 10 pellets as well as my Steyr could, I can often shoot a 10 shot group of about 8mm at 45 yards and my Steyr could only ever beat this by a fraction. At 30 yards and under, there is no difference and in wind (Measured with an anomomiter) the Tx is better then the Steyr.

On a basic club course, i would expect to be a few points infront or a few points behind my mate Alex Larkin, me an Alex have always been at the same level and this hs not changed sinced I moved to a springer. However, when it comes to National UKAHFT spec courses where the 25mm are at 40 yards and the kneelers and standers are at maximum, then the gap between me and Alex widens. Also, there seems to be a growing trend to force people up the pegs and also the wrong side of the peg and for a PCP, this is not an issue, but for a boinger, this is almost an impossible shot.

There is no doubt that on a basic course the springers can compete, but when the course are tough and long, then it's much harder.

That being said, I never managed to clear a course until I started to shoot spring, so, what does this tell me? When I shot PCP, i got lazy, I would go to a target and expect to kill it and when I did not treat the target with respect, I often missed. With a boinger, you have to think about every shot, so, for me, shooting a spring is the best thing.

Hope this helps.

Gary

[Barryg]

I have been following this thread with a lot of interest and there has been many great points, I shall ignore the comments from the old codger (ChrisC) as in his advancing years he gets a bit confused now and then (No spring chicken) :-)

What Bozzer says is correct, on a level ground, my TX200hc will shoot 10 pellets as well as my Steyr could, I can often shoot a 10 shot group of about 8mm at 45 yards and my Steyr could only ever beat this by a fraction. At 30 yards and under, there is no difference and in wind (Measured with an anomomiter) the Tx is better then the Steyr.

On a basic club course, i would expect to be a few points infront or a few points behind my mate Alex Larkin, me an Alex have always been at the same level and this hs not changed sinced I moved to a springer. However, when it comes to National UKAHFT spec courses where the 25mm are at 40 yards and the kneelers and standers are at maximum, then the gap between me and Alex widens. Also, there seems to be a growing trend to force people up the pegs and also the wrong side of the peg and for a PCP, this is not an issue, but for a boinger, this is almost an impossible shot.

There is no doubt that on a basic course the springers can compete, but when the course are tough and long, then it's much harder.

That being said, I never managed to clear a course until I started to shoot spring, so, what does this tell me? When I shot PCP, i got lazy, I would go to a target and expect to kill it and when I did not treat the target with respect, I often missed. With a boinger, you have to think about every shot, so, for me, shooting a spring is the best thing.

Hope this helps.

Gary

Your post is music to a springer shooter's ears

[Amac]

I am glad that this thread has developed into a discussion regarding the difficulties of springer shooting at today's difficult course layouts. I suppose the bottom line is that organisers have allowed for the provision of a springer category and that of course all using a boinger are in the same boat.
The problem is that the boat has developed a few leaks. Course setters do a great job of fooling the unwary into a bad shot, even when using a "dead" gun. I would like to see some of the top shoots using boingers for a year and to then see if the rules changed!
Anyway, got to go and zero the new 97!
Bye for now folks,
Andy

[Herx77]

Just a thought, "to play devils advocate" regarding kill (target) sizes; and in the past targets being bigger that entailed better scores. EG, the shooting ability was inferier to todays shooters. Using Springers.
I would propose that the skill level was as good as (and in my experience with shooters through the 80's and 90's) overall better.
Sizes... How do you shoot to achieve a range card?or what are your expectations!
Do you set out to form a group of 1inch,2inch or more finding the centre of the group to make it the reference at that paticular distance!
At Markyate in the 80's( I know going back like a Tardis) and what I do today with springers and pcp's, is pick out a pellet mark and shoot to hit or clover leaf it from marks 8 to 55 yds. We did that as did D. Welham and T. Doe etc.
Clover leafing at 50/55yds was common and fun.
NOW if you can shoot pellet marks during range carding why would it be difficult hitting larger targets .After all a 15mm or 35mm kill is a lot bigger than a pellet splash.(Not much changes)
So why the difficulty and frightening aspec of a set course? you just proved you can shoot smaller items. Is it a skill thing?
One gun is easier to shoot and be comfortable with it,and another needs constant adjustments but is accurate but needs more applied skill.
That is shooting a 'live' springer.
HERX77 .

[22pelletpete]

Just a thought, "to play devils advocate" regarding kill (target) sizes; and in the past targets being bigger that entailed better scores. EG, the shooting ability was inferier to todays shooters. Using Springers.
I would propose that the skill level was as good as (and in my experience with shooters through the 80's and 90's) overall better.
Sizes... How do you shoot to achieve a range card?or what are your expectations!
Do you set out to form a group of 1inch,2inch or more finding the centre of the group to make it the reference at that paticular distance!
At Markyate in the 80's( I know going back like a Tardis) and what I do today with springers and pcp's, is pick out a pellet mark and shoot to hit or clover leaf it from marks 8 to 55 yds. We did that as did D. Welham and T. Doe etc.
Clover leafing at 50/55yds was common and fun.
NOW if you can shoot pellet marks during range carding why would it be difficult hitting smmaller targets .After all a 15mm or 35mm kill is a lot bigger than a pellet splash.(Not much changes)
So why the difficulty and frightening of a set course? you just proved you can shoot smaller items. Is it a skill thing?
One is easier to shoot and be comfortable with it,and another needs constant adjustments but is accurate but needs more applied skill.
That is shooting a 'live' springer.
HERX77 .

Yes that is understandable herx77 my feelings too.IMHO its all about acheiving your personal best with the equipment you have. dont expect pcp scores or be disheartened when springing,the pleasure is improving by honing your skills

[Wheelieneilie]

Yes that is understandable herx77 my feelings too.IMHO its all about acheiving your personal best with the equipment you have. dont expect pcp scores or be disheartened when springing,the pleasure is improving by honing your skills

Wahoo! I shot with Herx77 and Melanie last weekend at Lea Valley and finally pushed my Lea Valley PB with a PCP up to my Lea Valley recoiling PB!!!!!!
All the best,
Neil Wakelin