In praise of Webley air pistols

[ggggr]

With all this attention on Tempests... might you guys indulge a relative newbie with a bit of technical assistance for mine? I've got a .22" Tempest from about 1997 in great shape, put a new spring in it last month and it shot well. But then the thing stopped cocking. Sometimes. And now the barrel just refuses to pass about 132 degrees relative to the cylinder, nowhere near catching the sear. I'm sure I did something slightly stupid in putting it back together but I've had it apart three times since putting in the new spring and it just won't work any more. Can't see a single thing wrong. I've studied the parts blow-up and various folks' trigger assembly pictorials and it looks like I'm doing everything right. But does this particular barrel angle of 132 degrees, stopping cold like it's running up against something, give enough of a clue for experienced Tempest mechanics to sort me out?

At a guess Gerard,If you are sure you have put it together right and ( hooky bit of sear spring on the sear and the leg of it goes up to the relieved bit of the trigger guard) the trigger and sear might not be aligned. Turn your gun upside down and have a look at the trigger and sear. You should be able to see the long leg of the sear,between the trigger and the sear stop pin. If you cannot see it then you need to pull the trigger and fiddle with a small screwdriver or rod and push on the short bit of the sear to rotate it until the long leg is visible and then release the trigger. With this though, the barrel usually gets just over vertical, maybe 100-110 degrees to the cylinder. If everything looks ok, then before you strip the gun again to look if the sear spring is broken, look at the trigger adjusting allen screw. These often undo and can foul on the trigger guard when cocking. These sounds more like you 132 degree thing. If it is fouling, then a touch of thread lock and wind the screw in.

[Gerard]

Turn your gun upside down and have a look at the trigger and sear. You should be able to see the long leg of the sear,between the trigger and the sear stop pin.

Have a look at this close-up shot of the sear and spring, just ahead of and above the trigger.
http://www.luthier.ca/other/forum/Tempest_sear.jpg
Seems to me the spring is fine, was fine when I last assembled it and seems to function as it ought to. The trigger's action is normal. The sear leg showing just under (above) the spring couldn't be a lot longer without hitting the front of the trigger guard frame so it must be the right way around I think.

If everything looks ok, then before you strip the gun again to look if the sear spring is broken, look at the trigger adjusting allen screw. These often undo and can foul on the trigger guard when cocking. These sounds more like you 132 degree thing. If it is fouling, then a touch of thread lock and wind the screw in.

The tiny allen set screw in the trigger is indeed very loosely threaded. I'm out of Loctite, have to remember to get some next time I'm at a tool store. But checking it at all adjustments, from all the way in to almost all the way out, there's no change in the malfunction, so this isn't the problem.

I'll have a try tonight after my son gets to sleep. So morning tomorrow your time. I'll let you know what comes of yet another disassembly/reassembly routine. Thanks for the help!

[ggggr]

Have a look at this close-up shot of the sear and spring, just ahead of and above the trigger.
http://www.luthier.ca/other/forum/Tempest_sear.jpg
Seems to me the spring is fine, was fine when I last assembled it and seems to function as it ought to. The trigger's action is normal. The sear leg showing just under (above) the spring couldn't be a lot longer without hitting the front of the trigger guard frame so it must be the right way around I think.


The tiny allen set screw in the trigger is indeed very loosely threaded. I'm out of Loctite, have to remember to get some next time I'm at a tool store. But checking it at all adjustments, from all the way in to almost all the way out, there's no change in the malfunction, so this isn't the problem.

I'll have a try tonight after my son gets to sleep. So morning tomorrow your time. I'll let you know what comes of yet another disassembly/reassembly routine. Thanks for the help!

I cannot make out the pic. When you strip the gun again, take out the safety. The trigger should still work ok. Remove the main spring and see if the gun cocks. Then try just putting the sear and stop pin in and cock the gun. You will probably have to fiddle the sear into the right position as you will not have a sear spring fitted. If you can get the gun to cock,then at least the holding face of the sear would seem to be ok. If it cocks then repeat with the trigger also fitted, but still no safety catch,sear spring or trigger guard. If it still cocks then take out trigger and refit safety and then trigger. If it is working, then refit sear spring and trigger guard. Finally if it is working, replace the mainspring.

Ps, when I fit the safety, I don't follow the Webley instructions. I just fit it with the cut out facing forwards and then put the big spring on to hold it in place.

[Gerard]

Thanks for all that ggggr, I'll use your very carefully methodical approach. Might help. I ought to have been clearer about what the picture represents. So I've added some arrows and text at the same link above which should make things crystal clear, just click again and the image should explain itself - unless your browser has cached the previous version, in which case clear recent history and refresh the image.

[ggggr]

Thanks for all that ggggr, I'll use your very carefully methodical approach. Might help. I ought to have been clearer about what the picture represents. So I've added some arrows and text at the same link above which should make things crystal clear, just click again and the image should explain itself - unless your browser has cached the previous version, in which case clear recent history and refresh the image.

STOP! Hi Gerard---as soon as I got off the computer last night I thought. I take it your fulcrum plate is not worn? Ok,take the barrel off and take the mainspring out before you look at the trigger again. Try to cock the gun by moving the piston with a screwdriver/small fod etc. If it now cocks and also holds while you push the piston, then your trigger set up is probably all right. If it seems to be, then try doing it with the barrel back on but still with no mainspring. If it does not cock now or seems marginal, look at the little cocking link Bk118 https://www.gunspares.co.uk/products...est-1979-2005/
It may be worn flat at the front and cannot pull the piston far enough back. You can knock out the pin and reverse it until you get a spare one.
If that does not work then it is into the trigger again.

[Gerard]

ggggr... thank you again for your generosity, I am grateful. I've finally taken some of my scant spare time away from my new Brocock Atomic (thing is fun!) long enough to dismantle the Tempest and check it over, and found absolutely no wear of any significance on any part. Putting it back together by the manual, step by step, I was doubly careful to observe each element carefully and reference your contributions here at the same time. And it works. All I can think is that somehow I misaligned the sear... though why it would work for well over 100 shots, then start failing, then fail completely is a mystery. But it's working well now, so all my pistols are happy at the same time. Hurray!

[ggggr]

ggggr... thank you again for your generosity, I am grateful. I've finally taken some of my scant spare time away from my new Brocock Atomic (thing is fun!) long enough to dismantle the Tempest and check it over, and found absolutely no wear of any significance on any part. Putting it back together by the manual, step by step, I was doubly careful to observe each element carefully and reference your contributions here at the same time. And it works. All I can think is that somehow I misaligned the sear... though why it would work for well over 100 shots, then start failing, then fail completely is a mystery. But it's working well now, so all my pistols are happy at the same time. Hurray!

Hi Gerrard--well that is good news. The only things I can think of (and I dont know how it could happen) is that the sear has somehow fallen back instead of being to the stop pin. had a few Tempests that wont cock but I guess it is after they have been played with. A push on the sear to get it back in sync has sorted them (but obviously get stripped for a full clean and lube afterwards anyhow.). Maybe you somehow put the sear spring back wrongly and it worked for a while. Then again, maybe a tiny bit of crud got stuck in the housing?
Main thing is it is working. Better do a bit of plinking to keep it in the mood

[gedfinn 2]

At a guess Gerard,If you are sure you have put it together right and ( hooky bit of sear spring on the sear and the leg of it goes up to the relieved bit of the trigger guard) the trigger and sear might not be aligned. Turn your gun upside down and have a look at the trigger and sear. You should be able to see the long leg of the sear,between the trigger and the sear stop pin. If you cannot see it then you need to pull the trigger and fiddle with a small screwdriver or rod and push on the short bit of the sear to rotate it until the long leg is visible and then release the trigger. With this though, the barrel usually gets just over vertical, maybe 100-110 degrees to the cylinder. If everything looks ok, then before you strip the gun again to look if the sear spring is broken, look at the trigger adjusting allen screw. These often undo and can foul on the trigger guard when cocking. These sounds more like you 132 degree thing. If it is fouling, then a touch of thread lock and wind the screw in.

Hi Guy & All,
I too am into this Tempest thing , Having been presented with one at a very fair price for my HPA " Webley "
( Thanks mate )

I can see what the talk is about with the trigger , I do not know ! But it looks like it has to be cocked to work !
I mention this as its awkward to keep inserting & Removing the piston,
Guy,s kind words & Info have helped a great deal,

On to the Tempest, Its a small piston with a plastic seal, Its only going to make about 3-4 Fpe at the most, Even in .22 , ( As this one is )
It does have a long cocking stroke albeit with a small OD spring ,
I am quite impressed with the gun, The short length ( Aided by the overcocking design ) & a good barrel length ,

I do not know about the remainder of the Webley pistol range, guessing they are the same, Or very similiar,
This design is Ideal for a Hpa/Co2 conversion ? ( I am making the piston as we speak ) It will have a short cocking stroke, & Very light main spring & will look identical
( Almost Ha ha ) Power !!!!!! An easily limited 6 Fpe,
Ged.

[ggggr]

I was thinking Why are Juniors made the way they are (Tube brazed? into a frame ) and the Mk1,Senior and Premier made the way they are? I think a bigger pistol built like the junior would look pretty good and vice versa.

[ashf9999]

Why not? I guess as the Junior pistols were intended to be cheaper and within reach of saved pocket money, using a separate tube threaded into a machined body casting was an easier (and so cheaper) method of manufacture. If they machined a Junior in the same fashion as a Senior their costs would have been too similar and there wouldn't have been the required product differentiation...But that's a guess...