Can I go shorter??

[kennyc]

Sorry, PPU is rubbish, again about 3" groups. RWS just over an inch.

sorry factory PPU? where was this mentioned? your original post

I'm happy the powder is consistent and the length has been measured correctly.

And at 100yds I'm getting 3" groups which clearly isn't good enough. There's not even a trend towards tighter groups as the COAL decreases.

So.....shall I keep going shorter or am I just a crap shot? The factory ammo is quite a bit shorter than my reloaded stuff but I know it has to be.

Any ideas?

I am reading this as its your reloads that are giving a 3MOA group, not factory, are the RWS factory loads using the same Amax bullet? if so why not load to the same COAL as them and try that out? that will eliminate/implicate your reloading technique as the culprit and hopefully give you a baseline from which to work out your best CAOL

[phil384]

sorry factory PPU? where was this mentioned? your original post

I'm happy the powder is consistent and the length has been measured correctly.

And at 100yds I'm getting 3" groups which clearly isn't good enough. There's not even a trend towards tighter groups as the COAL decreases.

So.....shall I keep going shorter or am I just a crap shot? The factory ammo is quite a bit shorter than my reloaded stuff but I know it has to be.

Any ideas?

I am reading this as its your reloads that are giving a 3MOA group, not factory, are the RWS factory loads using the same Amax bullet? if so why not load to the same COAL as them and try that out? that will eliminate/implicate your reloading technique as the culprit and hopefully give you a baseline from which to work out your best CAOL

Yes, factory PPU is giving me 3" groups as are my first few batches of reloads. Factory RWS ( I just happen to have also bought RWS Brass) rounds are much better. I see what you mean, If the factory RWS is getting me close to where I want to be then use that COL as a guide.

[kennyc]

Yes, factory PPU is giving me 3" groups as are my first few batches of reloads. Factory RWS ( I just happen to have also bought RWS Brass) rounds are much better. I see what you mean, If the factory RWS is getting me close to where I want to be then use that COL as a guide.

exactly and then you can try moving the bullet towards the lands to see if that tightens your groups

[phil384]

I now have something to keep me out of trouble tomorrow evening

Thanks for the advice chaps

[bullbarrel]

Phil, you don't mention what dies you are using. Did you see my comment about Lee neck sizing dies. I caught me out when I started and I know at least two others too.

I'm not sure I'd clean the rifle between strings. Clean it before you start, fire a couple of PPU rounds just to rid of them and then don't clean till the end. Should be fine over 20+ rounds.

Wish I was still just down the road (well, I don't really but you know what I mean) so I could help more.

Kenny certainly has given a good starting point for the next session.

[phil384]

Phil, you don't mention what dies you are using. Did you see my comment about Lee neck sizing dies. I caught me out when I started and I know at least two others too.

I'm not sure I'd clean the rifle between strings. Clean it before you start, fire a couple of PPU rounds just to rid of them and then don't clean till the end. Should be fine over 20+ rounds.

Wish I was still just down the road (well, I don't really but you know what I mean) so I could help more.

Kenny certainly has given a good starting point for the next session.

I'm using the Lee Pacesetter dies but only the deprimer/sizer then the bullet seater, not the crimping die

[kennyc]

I'm using the Lee Pacesetter dies but only the deprimer/sizer then the bullet seater, not the crimping die

use the crimp die as per the advice from Chris above before considering neck turning, you already have the kit so why not use it?

[bullbarrel]

I'm using the Lee Pacesetter dies but only the deprimer/sizer then the bullet seater, not the crimping die

Ok, it was the lee neck resizer I was wondering about, but the pacesetter uses a full length resizer. I wouldn't use the crimp die unless you have a bullet with a cannelure in it. But thats just me.

Fingers crossed the next batch will start to reduce the group size.

[phil384]

Ok, it was the lee neck resizer I was wondering about, but the pacesetter uses a full length resizer. I wouldn't use the crimp die unless you have a bullet with a cannelure in it. But thats just me.

Fingers crossed the next batch will start to reduce the group size.

Yep full length resizing and I was advised against crimping, in fact I'm pretty sure the reloading manual says its not for my type of bullet too.

[Parabuteo]

Ok, it was the lee neck resizer I was wondering about, but the pacesetter uses a full length resizer. I wouldn't use the crimp die unless you have a bullet with a cannelure in it. But thats just me.

Fingers crossed the next batch will start to reduce the group size.

Not required, it creates its own which is the point of it. IF you load to a cannelure you are stuck with a set OAL. Decent bullets dont usually have them, Sierra only produced a 77 SMK with one for the Mod 262 loads as they get used in semi automatics/automatics.

One of the problems with neck turning is that as the brass flows forward, you lose the effect. It really only has any effect on very tight necked rifles because you can now chamber what could not be chambered.

Seriously whether you crimp is up to you but so far I have not come across anyone who has tried it without positive results. I do it for the following reasons.

1. It has improved consistency on all of my full bore rifles service rifles and my M67

2. It has produced good results with a much longer jump than many would think ideal in my M67 Kongsberg (It has a very generous free bore anyway and loading to near the landes makes mag loading perilous...)

3. If you think I am neck turning batches of 100 cases you can sod off

Bear in mind that with service mag fed rifles you cant mess about with the COALs much if at all. I tend to grab a live round and copy that OAL then mess with the load until it works.

If you have tried everything then get a gun plumber who knows what he is doing (there are a few) to use a bore scope and look at the first few inches of the barrel. I am just about to have my AR re barrelled after 6.5k as it is no longer holding anything like what I would want. Comment was that there is a lot of erosion which does not surprise me.

Sometimes some barrels are just bad, harsh but true.

Also make sure that your full size die is set up correctly. The further you push the brass back the harder you work the brass but also the more movement it gets. This can lead to inaccuracies and case head separation in short order.

In last years Imperial I had changed Dies and thought it was right, but I was getting separated cases after 3 firings...in an AR FFS. So I checked out my rounds in a Dillon headspace gauge and it was well under, so the case was being worked to hell. I re-set at bolt action and have had smooth operation and no separations since.

I never really understand the obsession with FL Re-sizing. I only FL resize for the AR just in case heat causes some issues (they get bloody hot even on straight pull with some practices and you cannot risk a bad feed in a rapid shoot). Neck sizing reduces the work hardening on your brass. I never did it when shooting F class and never do it for my No4 or M67, yet the rounds are perfectly accurate.

Keep it simple, keep it consistent, then when it comes to fault finding its easier to de-bug.

[pjinoz]

Yes, factory PPU is giving me 3" groups as are my first few batches of reloads. Factory RWS ( I just happen to have also bought RWS Brass) rounds are much better. I see what you mean, If the factory RWS is getting me close to where I want to be then use that COL as a guide.

Here is my 2 p or cents: You say that you can get 1 inch groups with RWS but not with your hand loads or PPU. This tells me that your barrel should be able to shoot accurately (RWS) but your hand load with good bullets is poor. Firstly small changes to COL might make some change to accuracy but they are not going to be great. eg. I built a 378 Weatherby Mag. but designed the reamer to "improve" it slightly reducing case taper and blowing out the venturi shoulder. But, I incorporated HALF AN INCH of freebore (Early Weatherby's had free bores up to 3/4 inch; don't know about now) and this monster shot sub inch groups with 270 grain Hornady's @ 3206 f/s (shot to shot with this load was very good but poor with another using a different primer)-but it hurt off the bench! Most if not all my accuracy problems have been related to poor bullets (your Hornady should be ok) or sub standard ignition (primer) or perhaps most likely erratic powder burn which may be related to unsuitable powder (too fast/slow). However, even if you use a fast or slow powder providing that the load burns uniformly shot to shot you still should be able to get reasonable accuracy. Therefore it is possible that your handloads are erratic in shot to shot. Have you put your reloads across the chrono? How hot are your reloads? Remember that the load data as published is pertinent to their gun and possibly not yours. If you do not know how to work up loads then perhaps reading the sticky "A good read for reloaders" would be useful. Finally, I suggest that investing in a chronograph will save you wasted ammo and even "make you cry" when you see the results. I bought my first chronograph in 1970 and could not live without one!
Cheers