Old School Venom lazaglide Vs Modern V-mach Weihrauchs...

[bigtoe01]

It is interesting, kinda supports the light piston / high preload = low hold sensitivity and snappy (gasram like), as opposed to heavier weight piston / lower preload = softer but potentially more hold sensitive.

Personally I prefer to err toward the snappier side, say about 2" of preload on a moderate spring. I don't like v. low preload guns, they need heavier pistons and feel slow. Then again I like gasrams too

The only issue is you end up with a 10.5fpe rifle that is almost uncockable...it had a nice shot cycle however...but you have to cock it first.

[Shed tuner]

The only issue is you end up with a 10.5fpe rifle that is almost uncockable...it had a nice shot cycle however...but you have to cock it first.

Agree completely, so obviously we have to compromise somewhat... the 2" of preload with 3mm gauge springs in my TXs is a good compromise IMHO.

Pity you are a gazillion miles away, we could compare shot cycles

[bigtoe01]

Agree completely, so obviously we have to compromise somewhat... the 2" of preload with 3mm gauge springs in my TXs is a good compromise IMHO.

Pity you are a gazillion miles away, we could compare shot cycles

Jon

My HW55 is long stroked, uses a somewhat smallsih spring (wire dia) and due to restricted spring length room is limited to 10.5FPE although I may be able to get 2 more coils in if i machine the trigger block face back a tad (like i did on Pauls 50s) The piston is light..200g ish (forgot exactly but will measure it up again), the firing cycle is fast....the accuracy is very high (superdomes at 750fps or so). I had to sleeve the transfer port down to 2.7mm from 4mm to get it to behave, at 4mm it was brutal on the trigger finger after 20 shots or so. Now I believe i get away with the 55 as it is due to the piston weight, i have a similar setup in my .22 280k, i short stroked to 64mm and this too had a 4mm transfer port 22mm long and at this stroke it easy made 11+ BUT due to the lower swept volume and the heavier weight of the piston it was not slammy...but very very gas rammy. I decided to follow the model of the 55 and sleeve the port down and went to 2.6mm with a venturi at the piston end and 10mm at the breech end opened to 2.8mm...utter transformation although the power went down a tad due to the more restrictive port...so I added 4mm of stroke back on and left the 4mm of preload i lost off the spring...end result was 99.9% the same as that at 64mm but more power.

The question however is what is better, light weight fast pistons with longer stroke, or heavier pistons with shorter stroke giving the same power. Dave's 77 is supremely fast, i watched him shoot it and he was in awe of the accuracy...truly all pellets thru the same hole at 30yards, BUT I was seeing the same from a 440TH with a very different shot cycle off a bag and off hand...totally different setup with a much heavier piston.

I like the 55, i like the accuracy of the 440TH...which is better? I have no clue

[davegee59]

dont forget to bring my 55 bigballs,i mean bigtoe lol

[Happy-Harry]

Must say that I prefer the "feel and flow" of a more traditionally tuned rifle, - cocking ease, gentle recoil, and being able to watch the pellet every moment of its flight time.

I feel I shoot them better, I feel more in control; but when ever I run a tape measure over group sizes the faster snappier locktimes of modern glided rifles they better my others, so I can never dispute they do the job better, nor that the cocking action is anything other than silent and creamy.

I have to conceed they "do more of the work than I do", but I agree they feel more Theoben than they used to.

[Baxterbasics]

This is a great observation-exactly how I feel about the older style Vs modern V-mach. I have had a brief comparison today-changing triggers/stock etc, both shoot well, the V-mach 97k being slightly "harsher" than the Lazaglided 77k.
After swapping bits between the rifles, they both need properly zeroing in-both scopes are plumbed and set for correct eye-relief, need tweaking tommorrow am then try and set the zero's properly.
The one thing I am finding hardest is shooting a spring rifle prone-kneeling fine, prone-well, its a work in progress

[brucegill]

This is a great observation-exactly how I feel about the older style Vs modern V-mach. I have had a brief comparison today-changing triggers/stock etc, both shoot well, the V-mach 97k being slightly "harsher" than the Lazaglided 77k.
After swapping bits between the rifles, they both need properly zeroing in-both scopes are plumbed and set for correct eye-relief, need tweaking tommorrow am then try and set the zero's properly.
The one thing I am finding hardest is shooting a spring rifle prone-kneeling fine, prone-well, its a work in progress

You'd better give up mate and send me one of the 77's

[bozzer]

Just couple of points ...

My comments were in no way negative towards what Bigtoe does. I love reading his stuff and admire what he does. I'd love him to do one of my guns but I wasn't aware that he 'offers his services' ... I just thought he works on what he fancies?

The old V new Venom/ V-Mach ... I don't think that this is a Ivan/Dave V Steve ... I think materials have changed over the years and if Ivan and Dave were still doing Venom, they may well be doing things exactly like Steve is doing.

I went to Venom once and had the pleasure of watching them tune me a 77. Probably not the full Monty ... rather a quick 45 minute job ... but interesting all the same.

[DoctorBoudreau]

Agree completely, so obviously we have to compromise somewhat... the 2" of preload with 3mm gauge springs in my TXs is a good compromise IMHO.

Pity you are a gazillion miles away, we could compare shot cycles

Jon, what are the specs on your 3mm spring? Length, number of coils, ID and OD? I have a .120" wire spring on the way to me with custom guides (I think that means it's a 3mm wire). Curious how the length of mine compares to the one you are adding 2" of pre-load to. Also with the custom guides I had my TX200 piston lightened - I can run it anywhere from 173g up to 200g or more with a steel tophat. Plan to decrease stroke by 14mm. Last bit is figuring if the transfer port should be increased from 3.7mm.

[Baxterbasics]

Spent a few hours getting to know the Lazaglided HW77 today-what a joy it is to shoot-the lock time is actually pretty good-not as fast as my 97k, but no slowcoach either
It just feels smoother to cock and shoot though Possibly, as pointed out above, a product of a better quality staring rifle....

[Baxterbasics]

Further to my original ramblings on this thread, the "conclusion" reached by a fair few and from subsequent conversations with fellow Venom / V-mach fans:

Older rifle-slower and smoother
Newer rifle-faster and "snappier"

The rifle that Bigtoe describes as beautifully engineered but horrible to cock-well, guess what, I got my hands on it yesterday. Springer tuner extrodinaire Dave Gee has worked his magic on it. New breach seal, Venom Piston head, full re-lube and a macarri spring= airgun joy. Yes it is harder to cock than my early Lazaglided 77, not really much harder than my Lazaglided 97k though. The firing cycle is somewhere between the two, although the lock-time is warp speed
Could the answer be: take the best bits from old/new and combine them?

Or should we all be buying short-stroked TX's?

[TonyL]

Are you coming to the springer bash at Mick's?

After all, you created that first spark...

[bigtoe01]

Further to my original ramblings on this thread, the "conclusion" reached by a fair few and from subsequent conversations with fellow Venom / V-mach fans:

Older rifle-slower and smoother
Newer rifle-faster and "snappier"

The rifle that Bigtoe describes as beautifully engineered but horrible to cock-well, guess what, I got my hands on it yesterday. Springer tuner extrodinaire Dave Gee has worked his magic on it. New breach seal, Venom Piston head, full re-lube and a macarri spring= airgun joy. Yes it is harder to cock than my early Lazaglided 77, not really much harder than my Lazaglided 97k though. The firing cycle is somewhere between the two, although the lock-time is warp speed
Could the answer be: take the best bits from old/new and combine them?

Or should we all be buying short-stroked TX's?

had a chat with Dave tonight after I worked a deal on that 80 in the Tyrolean that I added bearings to, he was telling me after the breech seal he could back the spring off quite a bit...just hows how sometimes simple things get missed and have a dramatic effect on how a rifle shoots. I can tell you everyone that shot it at our club commented on how hard it was to cock, it must be quite a bit nicer now..

So, what do i do with this 80 with a Zephyr spring, i only want the stock really, do I short stroke the piston and sell the action or sleeve it and keep it? if I keep it it will be a .20 when finished not a .22.

[DoctorBoudreau]

had a chat with Dave tonight after I worked a deal on that 80 in the Tyrolean that I added bearings to, he was telling me after the breech seal he could back the spring off quite a bit...just hows how sometimes simple things get missed and have a dramatic effect on how a rifle shoots. I can tell you everyone that shot it at our club commented on how hard it was to cock, it must be quite a bit nicer now..

So, what do i do with this 80 with a Zephyr spring, i only want the stock really, do I short stroke the piston and sell the action or sleeve it and keep it? if I keep it it will be a .20 when finished not a .22.

Tony, is your blog down? Haven't been able to hit it the last couple of days.

[LeeO]

Could it be the starting ingredient's,?
I've read a few time's on here the older the better with HW's,?
I'm sure there's more than one engineer or tradesman on here who'd agree base material's dont seem as good as even ten years ago,let alone twenty,