.577 Parker Hale Musketoon.

[andrew375]

A few thoughts and suggestions as a result of some 20+ years shooting a PH P61 Artillary Carbine (AKA musketoon).

First of all the mould I use is the Lyman 575213PH which is the mould that Parker Hale had made for their rifles. I have cast and fired several thousand bullets I have not had one tumble. Neither have I had to resort to any kind of sizing die.

In all cases of tumbling I have observed it was because the bullets were not up setting into the rifling as a result of either not enough powder or the bullets being cast out of something other than pure lead. As you have tried upping the charge it looks like your problem is the latter.

Standard load I use is 65 grains, by volume, of fine; either Henry Kranks or FO Triangle. Only difference is that FO Triangle is slightly cleaner. With either powder I can get off a full card without having to brush out. Lube is 50/50 (by volume) Beeswax / Vaseline. On the official MLA target I can usually keep all my shots inside the "8" ring at 100 yards.

The rifling on the "musketoon" is not shallow at all but progressive depth. That is it is deeper at the breech end than the muzzle. A variation on the "squeeze bore" concept. Just as it was on the original. One interesting consequence of this was that the variation that Parker Hale supplied smooth-bore for going on shotgun certificate were smooth bore at the muzzle but rifling gradually appeared as the further down the barrel you went. Lyman made an oversize version of their minie mould that apparently worked well in these barrels.

[tim56]

Hi Andrew and Thank you for your reply. Im using old roofing flashing and fluxing with a commercial flux to cast my bullets.
The 575213 mold i have you can deform the skirt and easily scratch a groove into them with your finger nail so think we are
ok there. Steve sent me some of his bullets that work fine in his gun and these also tumbled in mine so although Iv never
heard of progressive depth rifling i will will do some homework on that point, my rifling is certainly very shallow at the muzzle
end.
Plan of action is;
a; Stick to TS2 powder till problem sorted.
b; Use a drop tube so as not to let powder get stuck on the crud from the previous shot.
c; Start using a bees wax / tallow mix lube instead of wonderlube.

Best Wishes for a Happy New Year, Tim

[tacfoley]

A few thoughts and suggestions as a result of some 20+ years shooting a PH P61 Artillary Carbine (AKA musketoon).

First of all the mould I use is the Lyman 575213PH which is the mould that Parker Hale had made for their rifles. I have cast and fired several thousand bullets I have not had one tumble. Neither have I had to resort to any kind of sizing die.

In all cases of tumbling I have observed it was because the bullets were not up setting into the rifling as a result of either not enough powder or the bullets being cast out of something other than pure lead. As you have tried upping the charge it looks like your problem is the latter.

Standard load I use is 65 grains, by volume, of fine; either Henry Kranks or FO Triangle. Only difference is that FO Triangle is slightly cleaner. With either powder I can get off a full card without having to brush out. Lube is 50/50 (by volume) Beeswax / Vaseline. On the official MLA target I can usually keep all my shots inside the "8" ring at 100 yards.

The rifling on the "musketoon" is not shallow at all but progressive depth. That is it is deeper at the breech end than the muzzle. A variation on the "squeeze bore" concept. Just as it was on the original. One interesting consequence of this was that the variation that Parker Hale supplied smooth-bore for going on shotgun certificate were smooth bore at the muzzle but rifling gradually appeared as the further down the barrel you went. Lyman made an oversize version of their minie mould that apparently worked well in these barrels.

All of this.

Except that lead flashing has progressively become somewhat less than lead, and more of a mixture of unknown pot metal sh!te over the years, and is extremely suspect as far a 99% purity is concerned. If you have a round ball mould of ca. 454'' available to use, use it to cast a single ball. If it IS lead of the quality that it should be, it SHOULD weigh 126gr - anything less than that, and it ain't.

tac

[tim56]

Hi tac, lead supply is about 25 years old ish. A mate of mine worked in roofing and stashed away all
his off cuts for years then when he moved i got the lot for beer money. Sadly supplies are now starting
to run low. Have molds for .451 .457 and .562. Will weigh em all and see if i can work it out. Tim

Additional..Just weighed a .451" round ball made with the same lead and it weighs 139 grns. The .457"
weighs in at 143 grns and the .562" weighs 263 grns.

[tacfoley]

Hi tac, lead supply is about 25 years old ish. A mate of mine worked in roofing and stashed away all
his off cuts for years then when he moved i got the lot for beer money. Sadly supplies are now starting
to run low. Have molds for .451 .457 and .562. Will weigh em all and see if i can work it out. Tim

Additional..Just weighed a .451" round ball made with the same lead and it weighs 139 grns. The .457"
weighs in at 143 grns and the .562" weighs 263 grns.

Your lead is good.

tac

[andrew375]

If your lead is good then it has to be the powder. I've always used fine in my P.61 but with medium I would put the load up to at least 80 grs. particularly with low cost powders like Henry Kranks generic. Swiss and Vectan powders are another matter. If bullets fly straight at this load then decrease the load until you reach the point they tumble. The fact is you need enough breech pressure to upset the bullet at the outset. Failing to do this will let the propellent gasses to blow by, effectively floating to bullet off the barrel wall. The change in performance in the two conditions is quite marked, for a start you get a much more authoritative sound from the muzzle blast. You do not get a condition of slightly obturating or mostly obturating; it either is or it isn't.

I witnessed someone shooting a 2 Band at 100 yards who thought he could reduce the powder charge to just 60gr. to reduce the cost of shooting. Every bullet hit the range floor about ten yards from the target and I could actually hear the warbling sound of the bullets flying end over end. He did manage a couple on the target but only because the target was in way as the bullet bounced up in to the backstop It took me a lot of persuading to to convince him to up the powder charge. Just an extra 5 gr. made the difference; snappier muzzle report and round holes in the black. The extra five gr. would have only added another 60fps at most so that in itself couldn't account for the 3 feet+ change in the height of impact. What made the difference was that the powder gases now exited after the bullet instead of before.

Do not bother with drop tubes for your powder you are just complicating things. At this stage you need to concentrate on getting round holes in your target. With both my P.61 carbine and P.53 "3 band" rifle my loading process is powder into measure then into barrel followed by the bullet rammed home with the ramrod, cap on, fire. No fouling shots, no swabbing out, no golf caddy full of rods and brushes. BTW, you do know to always shoot with the ram rod in place don't you? The spring that grips the ram rod is tensioned against the barrel, failure to have the ram rod in place will (usually) cause bullets to go any where other than where you point the rifle.

One more thing, the slide top 100 round boxes that Remington .22 LR comes in are just the right size to take 20 .577 Minies.

[tim56]

80 grns. ??? Should be interesting.!!! Will find out on Sat Tim

[andrew375]

Lube. Whatever lube you use, it goes on the outside - not in the base cavity!!

Do not use grease or conventional smokeless lubes like alox / beeswax, Bullets shoot ok but accuracy is crap and fouling is unmanageable. Beeswax / Tallow (25/75) or Beeswax / vaseline (50/50) are pretty much the standard.