Hard and Soft Pellets

[TonyL]

Thank you for starting this thread. After reading this excellent article, I was going to do just that, but related more to scrubbing the barrel. More later.......

As many of you will know, I'm a huge fan of Jim's. Correction.....I'm Jim's biggest fan and he has steered and influenced my enjoyment of our wonderful hobby for many, many years.

I can fully go with Jim's findings but I have a dilemma re switching pellets / cleaning the barrel. And I have what may be the perfect "example rifle" to tie in with Jim's theory in one of my 95s. It's a .177 and I bought it new when they first became available. I have never cleaned the bore. For many years I would only use RWS pellets, so it thrived very well indeed on Superdomes. Accurate and I was happy.

By 2013 I got access to a very good indoor range and 34 yards. In 2014, at nearing 20 years old (???), I fitted a V-Mach kit. Lovely. When I got to the range I tested with the 'Domes, as a "control". Good. I also tested JSB Exact 8.44 and 7.87 and also AAF. Good. But no better than the 'Domes, so that sort of made my mind up to stick with them. But I kept reading of how good the JSB derived pellets can be in terms of efficiency, firing cycle, ultimate accuracy if the correct batch was discovered etc......

Then I was given some boxed Crosman Premier 7.9s. The kind donor said that none of his rifles liked them. This 95 loved them. So they were the top pellet for accuracy for this rifle. Accuracy was good with the 'Domes and JSBs, but superb with the Crosmans.

Then I tried H&N FTT and they jumped to the top of the pile. Tiny, tiny one holers at 34 yards, rested.

A few months after that I tried some JSB Heavy outdoors at a blustery Quigley Hollow. Accurate and far less affected by the strong crosswind. I never got to try them at the indoor range, though.

And then, a couple of years or so ago, I tried the H&N Baracuda FT. Superb. As accurate as the FTTs on the indoor range and really good, like the JSB Heavy, in the wind.

So, this barrel has never been cleaned and it's had a variety of lead compositions down its barrel, including the harder Crosmans and H&N. Performance is good with just about every pellet and superb with the H&Ns.

So, as above, do I stick with them? Or am I missing out by not scrubbing the barrel and giving the JSBs a proper chance? With the lower start pressures, the promise of a sweeter firing cycle is tempting.

But......I have never, ever cleaned a barrel. Never felt the need. Mainly due to a fear of causing damage. I'd always thought that, if I were to be tempted, I'd use a cleaning felt that attaches to a rod. But, by the sounds of it, that wouldn't be enough to clear the harder lead deposits properly. A phosphor bronze brush is required. So, question to Jim......I'm guessing that one wouldn't just use the brush "dry". So would one use some sort of cleaning compound / oil? I still have some Young's 303 that I used to use to clean my shotgun barrels. Would that be any good? And then some light oil afterwards, followed by a drying patch / felts? Also, "scrubbing"?...I've always imagined that if I were to try to clean a barrel I'd make a pass (or multiple passes) from breech to muzzle. But the very word "scrubbing" would hint to me of multiple backwards and forwards movements to loosen the accumulated crud.

So, how to do it? What is the best practice? What would be the best products to use?

It would probably make a fantastic basis for a stand alone article of its own?

I'm still not saying that I'd definitely do it, but the reluctance is diminishing a little........

[C3PO_1]

I tried to clean the barrel of my HW100 and ****-ed it up ... losing a deal or something.

[TonyL]

I have sometimes read of people upsetting / dislodging probe seals on some PCPs. Also, if the barrel is in situ, I have read that the operation is better undertaken with the gun upside down so as not to allow ingress of any gunge, oil, cleaner into the transfer port?

[C3PO_1]

Just to be clear - I messed up my HW100 several weeks ago trying to clean the barrel and indeed it was an O-ring that seemed to have failed....so way before this article came out. At least it gave me an excuse to get the full HW100Tuning treatment

[BTDT]

Thank you for starting this thread. After reading this excellent article, I was going to do just that, but related more to scrubbing the barrel. More later.......

As many of you will know, I'm a huge fan of Jim's. Correction.....I'm Jim's biggest fan and he has steered and influenced my enjoyment of our wonderful hobby for many, many years.

I can fully go with Jim's findings but I have a dilemma re switching pellets / cleaning the barrel. And I have what may be the perfect "example rifle" to tie in with Jim's theory in one of my 95s. It's a .177 and I bought it new when they first became available. I have never cleaned the bore. For many years I would only use RWS pellets, so it thrived very well indeed on Superdomes. Accurate and I was happy.

By 2013 I got access to a very good indoor range and 34 yards. In 2014, at nearing 20 years old (???), I fitted a V-Mach kit. Lovely. When I got to the range I tested with the 'Domes, as a "control". Good. I also tested JSB Exact 8.44 and 7.87 and also AAF. Good. But no better than the 'Domes, so that sort of made my mind up to stick with them. But I kept reading of how good the JSB derived pellets can be in terms of efficiency, firing cycle, ultimate accuracy if the correct batch was discovered etc......

Then I was given some boxed Crosman Premier 7.9s. The kind donor said that none of his rifles liked them. This 95 loved them. So they were the top pellet for accuracy for this rifle. Accuracy was good with the 'Domes and JSBs, but superb with the Crosmans.

Then I tried H&N FTT and they jumped to the top of the pile. Tiny, tiny one holers at 34 yards, rested.

A few months after that I tried some JSB Heavy outdoors at a blustery Quigley Hollow. Accurate and far less affected by the strong crosswind. I never got to try them at the indoor range, though.

And then, a couple of years or so ago, I tried the H&N Baracuda FT. Superb. As accurate as the FTTs on the indoor range and really good, like the JSB Heavy, in the wind.

So, this barrel has never been cleaned and it's had a variety of lead compositions down its barrel, including the harder Crosmans and H&N. Performance is good with just about every pellet and superb with the H&Ns.

So, as above, do I stick with them? Or am I missing out by not scrubbing the barrel and giving the JSBs a proper chance? With the lower start pressures, the promise of a sweeter firing cycle is tempting.

But......I have never, ever cleaned a barrel. Never felt the need. Mainly due to a fear of causing damage. I'd always thought that, if I were to be tempted, I'd use a cleaning felt that attaches to a rod. But, by the sounds of it, that wouldn't be enough to clear the harder lead deposits properly. A phosphor bronze brush is required. So, question to Jim......I'm guessing that one wouldn't just use the brush "dry". So would one use some sort of cleaning compound / oil? I still have some Young's 303 that I used to use to clean my shotgun barrels. Would that be any good? And then some light oil afterwards, followed by a drying patch / felts? Also, "scrubbing"?...I've always imagined that if I were to try to clean a barrel I'd make a pass (or multiple passes) from breech to muzzle. But the very word "scrubbing" would hint to me of multiple backwards and forwards movements to loosen the accumulated crud.

So, how to do it? What is the best practice? What would be the best products to use?

It would probably make a fantastic basis for a stand alone article of its own?

I'm still not saying that I'd definitely do it, but the reluctance is diminishing a little........

I'm not advocating that everyone should scrub their barrels, Tony. The first rule of airguns is 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and, as you're 100% satisfied with harder pellets, best stick with them

The three TX200s I wrote about were 'broke' insofar as they would not group with the owner's preferred choice of pellet which, as they are HFT shooters, was soft JSB manufactured pellets.

[TonyL]

I'm not advocating that everyone should scrub their barrels, Tony. The first rule of airguns is 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it" and, as you're 100% satisfied with harder pellets, best stick with them

The three TX200s I wrote about were 'broke' insofar as they would not group with the owner's preferred choice of pellet which, as they are HFT shooters, was soft JSB manufactured pellets.

Thank you for that, Jim; understood and appreciated.

An article on barrel deep cleaning would still go down well though, methinks.

[Phil Russell]

Very interesting comments. Many years ago I used .177 Superdomes in my 77K and later, when I got a s/h S400 I switched to 8.4 AAF for both rifles. I found accuracy with both rifles to be very good. I did need a new zero for the 77k though.
Sometime later I had a dodgy tin of AAF (well it seemed that way ... poor accuracy that was then corrected by opening a new tin) and moved on to JSB 8.4. I admit I have not trawled through several other pellet makes in search of anything better.
But, to get to the point: the comments about soft and hard are very interesting but would it be possible to rank pellet makes in order of hardness? A few have been mentioned but the differentiation between hard and soft seems a bit subjective. Is there a definitive test that produces actual values e.g 1mm deformation at a force of X? A list of pellets according to hardness could be useful.
Maybe it is a case of searching back through Jim's publications ... or even getting Gary Wain to compile a list?
Cheers, Phil

[TonyL]

Very interesting comments. Many years ago I used .177 Superdomes in my 77K and later, when I got a s/h S400 I switched to 8.4 AAF for both rifles. I found accuracy with both rifles to be very good. I did need a new zero for the 77k though.
Sometime later I had a dodgy tin of AAF (well it seemed that way ... poor accuracy that was then corrected by opening a new tin) and moved on to JSB 8.4. I admit I have not trawled through several other pellet makes in search of anything better.
But, to get to the point: the comments about soft and hard are very interesting but would it be possible to rank pellet makes in order of hardness? A few have been mentioned but the differentiation between hard and soft seems a bit subjective. Is there a definitive test that produces actual values e.g 1mm deformation at a force of X? A list of pellets according to hardness could be useful.
Maybe it is a case of searching back through Jim's publications ... or even getting Gary Wain to compile a list?
Cheers, Phil

As you say, that would be quite interesting, Phil.

Of pellets that I've had experience with (obviously just talking lead here), latterly, yes, the JSBs are soft. Prior to that, the RWS Hobby has always come across as being "soft" to me. The Superdome seems similar-ish to me, being of darker appearance and ribbed. Meisterkugelns, R10, H&N FTT and Baracuda FT, Crosman Premier.....I'd say harder. And, of course, the good old Eley Wasp. Guessing there will be some correlation where softer ones are darker and the harder ones shinier? Then again I could be talking total cahoonies?!!!

[Phil Russell]

So we have to start somewhere: Gleaned from this post

HARD: wasp
Silhouette
Meisterkugeln
R10
H&N FTT
Barracuda FT
Cross Premier
Hobby
Superdome

SOFT: AAF
JSB


The order of pellets in the list is not a measure of 'how hard' or 'how soft' so comments are welcome to fine tune the list or add new types. Indeed I always thought AAF were quite hard?

Could it be tested? What if, a big 'if', say 10 pellets were melted into a cube or whatever and a known weight/pointy implement dropped onto/into the cube? The impression left could be measured for depth which would give a comparison between pellets but not a truly scientific measure.
Or would the hardness change due to melting? I can't see why it would other than due to separation of the components ..

Oh the things we do in Lockdown.
Cheers, Phil

[BTDT]

So we have to start somewhere: Gleaned from this post

HARD: wasp
Silhouette
Meisterkugeln
R10
H&N FTT
Barracuda FT
Cross Premier

SOFT: AAF
JSB
Hobby
Superdome

The order of pellets in the list is not a measure of 'how hard' or 'how soft' so comments are welcome to fine tune the list or add new types. Indeed I always thought AAF were quite hard?

Could it be tested? What if, a big 'if', say 10 pellets were melted into a cube or whatever and a known weight/pointy implement dropped onto/into the cube? The impression left could be measured for depth which would give a comparison between pellets but not a truly scientific measure.
Or would the hardness change due to melting? I can't see why it would other than due to separation of the components ..

Oh the things we do in Lockdown.
Cheers, Phil

Hobby and Superdome are in the wrong list, Phil.

[Phil Russell]

Hobby and Superdome are in the wrong list, Phil.

Have put Hobby and Superdome in the Hard list. But this is only leaving 2 examples in the soft ....

New idea for testing: Thin sheet of pellet material. Tube with a 1mm (?) punch in it, punch end at open end of tube. Tube has a threaded top end e.g. M6 with a screw through it to push punch down. Dial gauge on top of tube, small torque wrench on M6 screw. Record depth at which punch goes into the pellet material for a set torque.
Oh the things we think of ... ... but I do not have a wrench. ... I have a 1/2" drive one from motor maintenance days but that is most likely too big.

Cheers, Phil

[TonyL]

Hobby and Superdome are in the wrong list, Phil.

Yep.

And, re measuring them, Phil, a much more fun way will be to shoot and retrieve the pellets. Short range with low to medium powered guns or long range with higher powered guns will be fine. The amount of deformation will give a good idea. I've found that pellets retrieved from a pellet trap are very malleable and give a good clue as to the hardness. Not definitive, of course, but certainly gives an idea.

And you're very right, maybe Uncle Terry could entask Mr Wain to do some more measured testing?

[BTDT]

Very interesting comments. Many years ago I used .177 Superdomes in my 77K and later, when I got a s/h S400 I switched to 8.4 AAF for both rifles. I found accuracy with both rifles to be very good. I did need a new zero for the 77k though.
Sometime later I had a dodgy tin of AAF (well it seemed that way ... poor accuracy that was then corrected by opening a new tin) and moved on to JSB 8.4. I admit I have not trawled through several other pellet makes in search of anything better.
But, to get to the point: the comments about soft and hard are very interesting but would it be possible to rank pellet makes in order of hardness? A few have been mentioned but the differentiation between hard and soft seems a bit subjective. Is there a definitive test that produces actual values e.g 1mm deformation at a force of X? A list of pellets according to hardness could be useful.
Maybe it is a case of searching back through Jim's publications ... or even getting Gary Wain to compile a list?
Cheers, Phil

I have never directly tried to measure pellet hardness, Phil, but I did measure start pressures of JSB and other pellets, and the JSBs were all 200psi or less, the rest just under twice that (H&N FTT) or greater.