Classics versus new

[Rightguard147]

Just curious wether anyone still hunts with their classic rifles, and how you rate them compared with some of the newer kit.
For example how do you think something like an old airsporter or original 50 would compare to something more modern in a similar price range, say a s/h lightning?

Reason I ask is because since i joined this forum Ive come across rifles that I had never even seen or heard of before. This got me thinking if the development of airguns really has advanced so much in the last 20-30 years? (not including pcp's )
I mean all were really after is something that looks good and can get a tight group at 30 odd yards, right? so does newer mean better?

[I. J.]

Good question.
In my personal opinion and experience a nicely tuned FWB Sport or HW35 (and one or two other classic spring rifles) can hold its own against any modern springer.

ATB
Ian

[Hsing-ee]

Modern pellets make a massive amount of difference to the accuracy of rifles. If you try an old, good quality rifle, which has been lubed properly, with modern pellets, they give very good results.

For example in the last year I got the following results

1978 Weihrauch HW35 Export, with .22 Air Arms Field pellets - 24mm group 45 yards.

This would never have been possible 30 years ago, you would have been looking at 50mm at least, even with the best pellets.

1975 BSF Bavaria B55, with H&N FTT, .177 - 20mm group at 30 yards. I remember this rifle would do 70mm at 40 yards with the old pellets.

1979 Feinwerkbau Sport, .177, with H&N Match, 7mm group 25 yards, average, some of them much smaller and spread was probably down to my poor technique. This is about as good as a HW97/ProSport etc...


Etc etc ... Of course air-rifle design has improved - best place to see this is in the development of the Air-Arms rifles from the rather crude Jackals through the more sophisticated Air Arms sidelevers to the TX200 series and then to the immaculately conceived ProSport. The direct-loading fixed-barrel sporting rifle was a great step forward, but the pellets have given alot of the increase in accuracy. Even the leather washers don't affect things that much in the old guns, and I have a feeling they might actually be better, especially in a variable climate like the UK has.

I suggest you get a quality older springer, like an early 1970s HW35, and try it out after scrubbing the barrel and giving it a clean and re-lube. You might be very pleasantly suprised ...

[keith66]

I would go along with IJ on this one there are many old classics that are well capable of hunting, My first proper rifle ws a FWB sport i now use a mk 3 webley and have used a prewar BSA as well, the bunnies could not tell they had been whacked by a 90 year old rifle.
One thing i like about most old rifles is they can be cocked silently, there is nothing like a noisy anti bear trap device for scaring quarry away!

[Gareth W-B]

Yep, even though I have a rim fire rifle and an FAC p.c.p. air rifle (all legal and on ticket), can't imagine not going hunting Thumper with my trustee old .177 Webley Omega carbine (best rifle Webley ever made ), or my 1978 .177 HW35 from time to time too : Gareth.

[mallyally]

personally i dont think the fwb sport has ever been bettered "equaled mabe" also we are tied to a f lbs limit so efficiency has peaked

[look no hands]

Well a few years back I was quite happily hunting with a Mercury "S" and a Challenger which I regret selling, admitidly they were both tuned by SFS and shot very nicely after that but they brought home the bacon or should I say rabbit and pigeon.

Pete

[kevmar]

My son does very well using a refurbished BSA Mercury ,
at club he pops the tagets up and down easily,very easily in fact
interesting point re barrel cleaning,
I was under the impression,tighter groups were achived after
some lead had built up in the barrel,and to strip this could/would affect this.
Question,
to clean or not to clean?

also
a pleasure to read Hsing-ee's posts
learn something every time.

[Arai]

personally i dont think the fwb sport has ever been bettered "equaled mabe" also we are tied to a f lbs limit so efficiency has peaked

There's a lot of eulogy surrounding the FWB Sport, but I honestly think it wasn't as good as many of it's competitors. Like many, it was both handsome and accurate, but it's trigger, rear site, safety mechanism, barrel lock up, and perhaps it's use of steel to aluminium threads, let it down. It's appearance in MK III guise, made certain of it's end.

Price wise too, it was simply uncompetitive. In 1983, a MK II Sport, (with a much plainer stock than the MK I), cost £104.50. Contrast that with a HW35 at £63.50, an HW80 at £79.50, an RWS 45 at £75.50, or a Mercury S, at £71.95, making it an expensive rifle.

[I. J.]

There's a lot of eulogy surrounding the FWB Sport, but I honestly think it wasn't as good as many of it's competitors. Like many, it was both handsome and accurate, but it's trigger, rear site, safety mechanism, barrel lock up, and perhaps it's use of steel to aluminium threads, let it down. It's appearance in MK III guise, made certain of it's end.

Price wise too, it was simply uncompetitive. In 1983, a MK II Sport, (with a much plainer stock than the MK I), cost £104.50. Contrast that with a HW35 at £63.50, an HW80 at £79.50, an RWS 45 at £75.50, or a Mercury S, at £71.95, making it an expensive rifle.

In defense of the 'Sport most people remove the open sights and use a scope to make best use of its accuracy. The trigger, while not up to the standard of, shall we say the Rekord unit (but what is ) is passable and better than most of the offerings from BSA, Webley etc. The safety catch (more of a trigger lock) does it job and is well positioned AND resettable, a very useful feature. I have heard of the 'barrel lock up problem' but I have never experienced it personally. The lock up 'wedge' (on the cylinder) and the detent (in the barrel) are both replaceable if excessively worn. Where abouts on the sport do FWB use steel to aluminum threads?
Finally, while I do agree the 'Sport was expensive you usually have to pay for quality. The Mark 3 certainly contributed to its demise.

ATB
Ian - a self confessed FWB Sport fan.

[Garvin]

In defense of the 'Sport most people remove the open sights and use a scope to make best use of its accuracy. The trigger, while not up to the standard of, shall we say the Rekord unit (but what is ) is passable and better than most of the offerings from BSA, Webley etc. The safety catch (more of a trigger lock) does it job and is well positioned AND resettable, a very useful feature. I have heard of the 'barrel lock up problem' but I have never experienced it personally. The lock up 'wedge' (on the cylinder) and the detent (in the barrel) are both replaceable if excessively worn. Where abouts on the sport do FWB use steel to aluminum threads?
Finally, while I do agree the 'Sport was expensive you usually have to pay for quality. The Mark 3 certainly contributed to its demise.

ATB
Ian - a self confessed FWB Sport fan.

I'm with Ian on this one. True there was steel to aluminium in the trigger block and care needs to be taken not to cross the threads of the block/spring retaining bolt. But otherwise I think the Sport's flaws, all minor, are outweighed by its many virtues: the match quality barrel, beautifully honed cylinder, excellent trigger - which beats its contemporary rivals (bar the Rekord) hands down - and its uniquely impressive light weight/high power/easy cocking ratio. The lockup problem applies only to guns that are knackered and it can be fixed. Price wise yes they were expensive but they were built by the same gunsmiths who built FWB match rifles and for the major parts using the same top quality materials. By the time the MK3 came out the design was almost a decade old and FWB, by now back on top of the world with its 600 series match rifles, had lost interest in competing in the sporting rifle market. Relatively few Mk3s were made.

[I. J.]

Ive just remembered the excellent barrel shim arrangement on the 'Sport. One of the best available, on a par with the 335 and only available to any Weihrauch by expensive after market machining (Venom/V-Mach).
It also comes with sling swivels fitted as standard .

ATB
Ian

[Hsing-ee]

I have heard of the 'barrel lock up problem' but I have never experienced it personally. The lock up 'wedge' (on the cylinder) and the detent (in the barrel) are both replaceable if excessively worn.

Is the detent replaceable? Does it unscrew? I have heard from more than one source that it had to be built up with weld and ground in situ.

I think to really appreciate a Feinwerkbau Sport you really need to take one apart. The quality of the cylinder machining is extraordinary, as it the barrel.

Also, as Garvin points out, they are very lightweight AND easy to cock - half the effort of the HW35 (that's 50% for those of you working with the metric system). It makes it a superb rifle for long days in the field or on the range as it doesn't tire you out either by its weight or cocking pressure, which is not something you could say of the TX200HC which now rules the roost. For the same reason it is a very nice springer for youths and ladies (or even young ladies) to use, which is not something you can say for most of its competitors either in the 1980s or now.

[Garvin]

I think to really appreciate a Feinwerkbau Sport you really need to take one apart. The quality of the cylinder machining is extraordinary, as it the barrel.

In the 1983 AGW Annual Arthur Reid visited the FWB factory and reported that for economy reasons the Sport cylinder was made from the 300S tube. The two models also shared the same barrels apparently.

[Arai]

The Sport's a nice rifle, (I've had 3, currently have 1), but £104 when a HW35 was £63.50, it was never going to last. Whether the rear sight was removed or not, it was still below Weihrauch/RWS quality. The trigger needed a £25 trigger job from Dave Welham to put it on par with it's £63.50 rival, and I've seen many whose flimsy safety catch starts to release with enough trigger pressure!

Garvin's kindly pointed out where the steel/aluminium was used, and the great care required upon rebuild. Regarding The Sport's match quality barrel, so too's my RWS 45's! It's safety's rock solid and positioned perfectly, and it's 2 stage trigger's sublime. I also suspect the barrels manufactured by Weihrauch and fitted to their 35's, were/are capable of match accuracy. I'll wager that based on total rifles sold/barrel lock up failure, The Sport has the highest failure rate of late 70's/early 80's icons. Yes, it's fixable, but where are your part's coming from? HW35 spares etc, are readily available.

Only Feinwerkbau really know why they stopped manufacturing The Sport. My opinion is that it was simply superseded by better, and cheaper products from it's West German neighbours, combined with the increase in power offered by The HW80. I'm a great admirer of The Sport, and have sold many Sport spares to people on The BBS, (Garvin included). However, although a MK II fitted with a MK I stock is a sight to behold, I don't feel they were the best, just the most expensive.