HFT too 'clean'?

[bozzer]

I shot at Tawd and Rivi over the weekend. My first UKAHFT National shoots.

I thought both courses were very good. It was my first time at Rivi .... lovely setting to shoot. I preferred Tawd's course ... but that's because I probably like shooting in and amongst woodland and I think the guys at Tawd give you something to think about on every target.

For me ... it's a target discipline ... that happens to be set ( mainly ) in woodlands.

I quite like the idea of humps or foliage at a low level ... not for any other reason than to try and discourage a prone shot and make more people think about shooting that target kneeling. I'm a dwarf so any hump makes shooting prone more of a problem to me ... and I'd sooner shoot it kneeling than leaning high up on elbows or maybe even one elbow.

I'm not a big fan of wires and things in front of targets ... or targets that force 'non standard' positions. As I said ... it's a target discipline ... not a contortion test. I think they are great for club fun shoots or club 'extreme' shoots where the odd forced opposite hander and joke targets can be thrown in ... but at a serious competition the target should go down because the shooter has got the range and wind right ... and he/she can shoot ... not because they got lucky. Wires etc used to reduce a kill zone to within the rules of UKAHFT ... that's ... er fine. I quite liked that target at Rivi with the crossed wires in front ... If you shot it kneeling you got an an easy line to a lot of the kill above the cross ( which I did ... and missed ... but I still think it was right for me ... I just missed it because I didn't turn up at Rivi until about 15 targets in ).

Boz

[Ferrets Bueller]

Same as Bozzer for me too my First national shoots and i thought they were both great courses and had no complaints at all (bar some of my own silly mistakes) Both courses had there tricky and cheeky targets that made you change position, but isnt that what HFT is about, if it were easy we would all clear the courses and then moan about that too then.

If there is a hump in the way of a target move so you can see it as bozzer said about the drain pipe with nails through it at rivi on the left of the peg you had the nails cris crossed in the way but by just moving over to the right of the peg i had a clear shot.

[Ste_Hughes]

same as bozzer

but am i the only one that misses the cage shots and through pipes and stuff bring them back!!! they were what HFT was all about when it first kicked off round here

[Feral]

It's the shots that look really hard but when you take the time to think about them that I really like... a good lane puts as much onus on thinking the shot through and being tactical as it does about the mechanics of the shooting itself.

[LittleChief]

Firstly id like to thank you all for your posts, i was apprehensive, to say the least, at putting up my first post but youve all discussed as i hoped you would and not shot me down (pun intended ).

I know i was wordy but i think you got what i meant; im not advocating that we/they use comedy targets or anything but more that HFT shouldnt become too sterile ie the course managers forcing the course designers to make each shot too clean - nice and straight from the peg, nothing in the eye line, full kill zone viewable AND full back plate viewable.

While i understand the safety issues, the 'suitable for all' requirements and that HFT is not directly hunting related it can offer some challenges that arent available to the hunter and maybe even show they them why, absolutely, they shouldnt take these shots in real situations. For example, i wouldnt take a shot i wasnt comfortable with because of distance, or obscured view in the real world but i would in HFT. In HFT I know the kill isnt going to move so i can take my time finding the right stance for the shot which i think is part of the discipline, i dont feel i need to be led by the hand (or string) with a direct clean shot from every peg to every kill zone.

In all honesty i was amazed at how well some people shot at Tawd and Rivi, with the conditions and the courses their scores were brilliant. I enjoy the sport as it is but was concerned that course designers, who are very experienced, very competent riflemen and course designers are being reined in to make the course too user friendly.

[bozzer]

It's the shots that look really hard but when you take the time to think about them that I really like... a good lane puts as much onus on thinking the shot through and being tactical as it does about the mechanics of the shooting itself.

I agree ....

On a few shots that I managed to get over the weekend, having shot first, my shooting partners exclaimed ... " Ooooh well done " ... because the target 'made a lot of noise' visually when you first looked at it ( ok ok ... and they were just amazed that I'd actually knocked one down )...

... but it's basically me and my rifle at one end and a kill zone at the other end ... doesn't matter if the pellet is going through a pipe or a hole in a bush or between two tree trunks or a badger's back legs ... that all just makes a picture when you look down the lane.

... and no Steve ... it aint just you that misses those shots fella

... and jolly well done Paul with your springer victory at Rivi ... that 77 of yours shoots sweet but that's still a good effort mate seeing as you've only used it a few times.

Boz

[jagxkrs]

The problem you have with cages is that some cheats, and that is what they are claim a point for hitting the cage Here's a clue guys there is a different sound made when you hit the wire I liked the pipe target at Rivi, if you came off the post right you had a clear shot

[Charlts]

I enjoy the sport as it is but was concerned that course designers, who are very experienced, very competent riflemen and course designers are being reined in to make the course too user friendly.

Do you think you've had your concerns allayed then Dave?

Tawd and Rivi proved you can put out very tricky courses without resulting to a lottery of foilage or debris in the way. Every shot had the same obstacles in the way whether you were the first person in session 1 to shoot it or the last person in session 2.

Both courses were very good and certainly weren't easy at all.

I personally don't think HFT is getting too easy or sterile, I know a few people would like more extreme courses on the national circuit but it's not going to change the top boys scores by much, a point or two at most. Only the novices and not so top shots will be penalised. You only have to look at the results from club silly shoots done around the country to see the same names at the top end of the table.

Ryan

[LittleChief]

Do you think you've had your concerns allayed then Dave?

Yes to a degree, there do seem to be some who already enjoy HFT as it stands and i count myself amongst those but i do worry about any sport where 58/59/60 out of 60 are achieved so often (no disrespect intended). These scores do seem to imply that the courses need to be more difficult, even if the same person still wins in the end, at least it would have been more challenging for them and give a glimmer of hope to the chasing pack if the winning score was, say, 55 instead of 60.

This is really just for discussion im not coming down on HFT at all, I was just questioning the potential for our nanny state to make things too 'suitable for all'.

[popsheep]

I;m not saying any-one is cheating by calling a 1 if they hit the wire because it may have hit the plate after the wire .
All I say about them is dont put anything except wood in front of the tagget because no-one can be mistaken with the sound of pellet on wood against pellet on metal.
The wire target on Rivi, I hit the wire it was about 40 yards did it then hit the target I dont know and I bet you no-one else could tell you 100%unless they were looking through a scope set on 40 yards paralax at the time of impact .
So now for the question , if you as the shooter does not know 100% and you ask your competitors did it hit for a 1 or not ,I sure the answer is and has to be sorry I dont know .
So my way as a course setter is,
1 I will take that ellement of unsure away which cuts out any embarasment from the shooter[having to ask his fellow shooters did it hit or not ]
2 fellow competitors have not got to give a half and half call because they cant be 100% sure
So all I have to add is as long as I have anything to do with MAD you will not be seeing any target semi-covered with anything metal its as simple as that.

I will not tell you what I scored on the wire target at RIVI you can only guess

[Alegazmoz]

..... You only have to look at the results from club silly shoots done around the country to see the same names at the top end of the table.

Ryan

There are a few down this neck of the woods, would disagree with you on that score ... they seem to be having a 'mass-mare'

arf!

[jagxkrs]

There are a few down this neck of the woods, would disagree with you on that score ... they seem to be having a 'mass-mare'

arf!

Seems to be since the Sussex lads ventured out of Sussex to the Worlds Gary, possible you caught some horrible northern desease that makes you miss reducers???

[I. J.]

So my way as a course setter is,
1 I will take that ellement of unsure away which cuts out any embarasment from the shooter[having to ask his fellow shooters did it hit or not ]

So why not take away any doubt and introduce a couple of 'Shiit-or-Bust' targets to every course? Targets with wire or nails in front, anything that is the same for the first as it for the last. No one points for hitting any metal. It either falls for two points or nothing - hence the 'Shiit-or-Bust'

ATB
Ian

[Raygun]

It's always going to be a problem when you try to partially obscure a kill zone.

If you use metal it will be the same for every shooter on the course. There may be the very odd cheat who claims the one when it should have been zero but I think they are few and far between. They only cheat themselves anyway. Instead of gaining one they in reality have dropped one.

Using wood means that it can get shot away and in fact decrease the amount the kill is obscured. Although the wood will give a different sound when struck it also means that as the course is shot more of the wood can be removed making the target easier as time goes on.

It has to be the decision of the course builder what he uses and I would think in the main they get it right. I don't think there is a right or wrong way.
As long as the course is interesting and good to shoot the course builder has done his job.

ATB
Ray.

[Herx77]

Some courses are good, some are very good,some are very very good,others are the 'Devils Work' and the setters should be burnt at the stake..
Challenging courses can look easy but the scores show otherwise,and you don't need trick targets but there is always a place for the unusual in courses but the status of courses should be considered before introducing them.
Thats not to say trajectory traps shouldn't be used, and controlled deceptive shooting positions laid.
Sometimes with the best will in the world targets are not the same for the first as for the last,an example being reducers that are shot to sh*t making the definition of the kill zone vertially impossible for the late comers.
Such is life,interesting very interesting...
HERX77 .