Starting in blackpowder

[$harp$hooter]

I apologise as I'm sure this has been asked before.

I am looking into possibly getting into BP but just want to clarify a few things regarding the law.

1) Am I right in saying that I can purchase a section 58 BP shotgun/rifle/pistol without having a SGC/FAC as i wouldn't intend to shoot it?

2) After applying to get an FAC/SGC can I just transfer over the section 58 items to apply?

3) What are legal to buy prior to obtaining the necessary FAC/SGC and relevant legislation.

I also know that I would need to apply for an explosive certificate but that would be well after establishing all of the above.

Thanks in advance

Dan

[tacfoley]

Sir - you cannot buy a shotgun of modern manufacture, even a muzzleloader that uses loose powder, without a SGC.

You CAN buy a smoothbored antique firearm without any form of licence, except a birth certificate that shows that you are over 18 yo, even a rifled frearm that is an antique of an obslolete calibre, but you are not permitted to shoot it unless you subsequently license it either as a shotgun - smoothbore and SGC, or Section 1 firearm - rifled.

tac

[TA6319]

I have purchased a few rifles/shotguns as section 58(2), with a shotgun you just inform the Police you have it. A rifle has to have a available slot for that caliber. Its easy enough to do, with a shotgun and a rifle just takes a bit of time. Keep an eye on antique shops and places like that.

[$harp$hooter]

I have purchased a few rifles/shotguns as section 58(2), with a shotgun you just inform the Police you have it. A rifle has to have a available slot for that caliber. Its easy enough to do, with a shotgun and a rifle just takes a bit of time. Keep an eye on antique shops and places like that.

So it is a legal requirement that you inform the police if you buy a S58 shotgun? And to buy a S58 rifle do you need your FAC and available slots?

[tacfoley]

Please read this -

Antiques
Section 58(2) of the 1968 Act exempts from the provisions of the Act - including certificate controls under sections 1 and 2 and prohibition under section 5 - all antique firearms which are sold, transferred, purchased, acquired or possessed as curiosities or ornaments. The word "antique" is not defined in the Act but Home Office guidance on the subject can be summarised briefly as follows:

If modern ready made ammunition can be bought and fired using the weapon it cannot be classed as an antique; A muzzle loading firearm is antique; A breech loading firearm using a rim-fire cartridge exceeding .23 (but not 9mm) is antique; A breech loading firearm using an ignition system other than rim-fire or centre is antique; A breech loading centre fire firearm originally chambered for cartridges which are now obsolete and retains that original chambering is antique. However, each case should be dealt with on its merits and advice on individual weapons should be sought from the FSP. The case of R v Burke 67 Cr App R 220 dictates that it is for the Prosecution to prove that the firearm does not come within the ambit of section 58(2) and it is a matter for the jury to decide upon.

tac

[TA6319]

sorry I should have said you inform the police only if you want to use a section 58(2) shotgun. As tac said read the act

[enfield2band]

Please read this -

Antiques
Section 58(2) of the 1968 Act exempts from the provisions of the Act - including certificate controls under sections 1 and 2 and prohibition under section 5 - all antique firearms which are sold, transferred, purchased, acquired or possessed as curiosities or ornaments. The word "antique" is not defined in the Act but Home Office guidance on the subject can be summarised briefly as follows:

If modern ready made ammunition can be bought and fired using the weapon it cannot be classed as an antique; A muzzle loading firearm is antique; A breech loading firearm using a rim-fire cartridge exceeding .23 (but not 9mm) is antique; A breech loading firearm using an ignition system other than rim-fire or centre is antique; A breech loading centre fire firearm originally chambered for cartridges which are now obsolete and retains that original chambering is antique. However, each case should be dealt with on its merits and advice on individual weapons should be sought from the FSP. The case of R v Burke 67 Cr App R 220 dictates that it is for the Prosecution to prove that the firearm does not come within the ambit of section 58(2) and it is a matter for the jury to decide upon.

tac

There are grey areas in the Firearms Act as I am sure you are aware.

A .45/577" Martini Henry can be bought as a collectors item without an FAC. Technically the ammunition is obsolete but we all know that the cartridge cases can be bought and reloaded.
It seems that if you have one of these it is only considered as an antique if you do not have the ammunition for it. Once you load some up you then enter the realms of our restrictive legislation.

I recall reading some time ago that Bill Harriman (BASC) argued that you could have original ammunition with one of these as it is also collectable and only becomes subject to the Firearms Act if it is taken out to be used.

A Martini Enfield still needs an FAC because it is .303" centrefire.

[tacfoley]

Quote - A .45/577" Martini Henry can be bought as a collectors item without an FAC. Technically the ammunition is obsolete but we all know that the cartridge cases can be bought and reloaded.

In that case you have broken the Law.

Quote - It seems that if you have one of these it is only considered as an antique if you do not have the ammunition for it. Once you load some up you then enter the realms of our restrictive legislation.

In that case you have broken the Law.

Quote - I recall reading some time ago that Bill Harriman (BASC) argued that you could have original ammunition with one of these as it is also collectable and only becomes subject to the Firearms Act if it is taken out to be used.

That, Sir, makes FAR too much sense for our Law-makers.

tac

[tacfoley]

As you surmise, the .577/.450, Martini-Henry CAN easily be loaded IF you are doing it legally. Remember that you will be asked to justify the acquisition of suitable large rifle primers to set the things off, as well as a BP license to obtain the bangy stuff.

However, please note that there WERE official smooth-bore versions of this gun made available at the time of issue - the lack of rifling being more for the purpsoe of ensuring a miss rather than a hit if the gun was 'inadvertantly' aimed in the wrong direction - á la Indian Mutiny and the subsequent Sepoy-issue smoothbore Pattern 53s. Obviously such a gun would be off-ticket, until you expressed a wish to shoot it.

A shooting pal on this forum and in our club legally shoots his large and varied collection of M-H rifles and carbines- I hope he turns up soon - the M-H is not in my area of extened knowledge - his most certainly is.

tac

[enfield2band]

. 50/70 Maynard(H)
.500/.450 Westley Richards No.2 Musket (H)
.500-1.5 inch (H)
.500-2-25 inch (H)
.500-2.5 inch (H)
.500-3 rnch (H)
.500-3.25 inch (H)
.500/.450 No.1 Carbine (H)
.500/.450 Webley Carbine (H)
.500/-450-2.5 inch (H)
,500/.450 No.1 Express (H)
.500/.450-3 3/8 inch (H)
-500/.450- 3.5 inch (H)
-50 Remington Army Pistol, M1871 (W&M)
.50 Remington Navy Pistol, M1867 (W&M)
.50 Springfield Pistol, M1869 (W&M)
.500 Revolver (W&M)
.50/95 Winchester (D)
50-100 Winchester Express (D)
,50-110 Winchester Express (D)
.50/115 Billiard (B)
.50/140 Sharps (B)
.52-70 Sharps (H)
.54 Morse (H)
.55 Morse (H)
.55 Catling (H)
.55/100 Maynard (B)
.56-56 US Exptl. (H)
.577Selwyn 1865 (H)
.577 Daw's Patent 1867 (H)
.577 Snider (H)
.577/.450 Martini-Henry (H)
.577-2.25 men (H)
-577 2,5 inch (H)
-577-2 75 inch (H)
.577/.500 No.2 Express (H)
.577/.500 Magnum Express (H)
.577 Pistol (W&M)
.58 Morse (H)
.58 US Converted Musket, 1865 (H)
.58 Remington Carbine (H)
.58 US Berdan System Conversion (11)
.58 Tibbals/Roberts 1869 (H)
.58 Roberts (H)
.60 Chinese Jingal (H)
.65 Gatling (H)
.69 Morse (H)
.75 Gatling (H)
.75 Chinese Jingal (H)
.80 Catling (H)
1 inch Nordenfelt-Palmcranz (H)
20 bore/,577 Alex. Henry (H)
2.7mm Koljbri (W&M)
3mm Kolsbri (W&M)
4.25mm Liliput (W&M)
\\L01RB002\GROUP\OPPU\RREARMS\LETTER\GW11955R.doc
BUILDING A SAFE, JUST AND TOLERANT SOCiETY

[tacfoley]

Let's just clear up a couple of things here that seem, for some reason, to be puzzling people. I've just spoken to my extremely helpful FEO, BTW, so this is not just my usual piss and wind -

Yes, providing you are over 18yo you CAN buy a Martini-Henry RIFLE or SMOOTHBORE in .577/.450 calibre - it IS an obsolete calibre.

No, you may NOT shoot either form of the gun without it being on a Firearms Certificate if it is a rifle [Section 1] or a Shotgun certificate if it is a smoothbore.

No, you may NOT manufacture ammunition for the rifle without having an entry for it on your FAC - you will be committing the offence of being in illegal possession of Section 1 ammunition for which you do not hold an FAC.

Yes, you MAY load shotgun load cartridges for your smoothbore M-H, but again, you may be asked to provide evidence on legal ownership since you will be using LARGE RIFLE type primers [CCI200 or similar] and NOT shotgun primers [209 sized].

AAMOI, I've never seen a shotgun version of such a firearm, but then, I've never seen a crested bandicoot either. There's time.

In summary then, to make things crystal clear -

You can legally OWN ANY obsolete calibre firearm, rifled or smoothbore, especially if it falls within the the foggy remit of antique.

IF, however, you either make ammunition for it with the intention of shooting it and the RIFLED gun is NOT on an FAC, you are breaking the law. The penalties are heavy in time and money.

IF you have a smoothbore version then it needs to be covered by your SGC. Again, making ammunition WILL be problematical, since you will be using every component that is also needed for a rifle cartridge - effectively a SLUG projectile, a SECTION 1 FIREARM cartridge, and for that you would need to have an FAC bearing a suitable entitlement for that ammunition.

tac

[$harp$hooter]

Thank you to all have responded to me on this. This is exactly why I asked as it is very fuzzy in these area's prior to not holding an FAC/SGC.

[enfield2band]

Let's just clear up a couple of things here that seem, for some reason, to be puzzling people.

Yes, providing you are over 18yo you CAN buy a Martini-Henry RIFLE or SMOOTHBORE in .577/.450 calibre - it IS an obsolete calibre.

No, you may NOT shoot either form of the gun without it being on a Firearms Certificate if it is a rifle [Section 1] or a Shotgun certificate if it is a smoothbore.

No, you may NOT manufacture ammunition for the rifle without having an entry for it on your FAC - you will be committing the offence of being in illegal possession of Section 1 ammunition for which you do not hold an FAC.

Yes, you MAY load shotgun load cartridges for your smoothbore M-H, but again, you may be asked to provide evidence on legal ownership since you will be using LARGE RIFLE type primers [CCI200 or similar] and NOT shotgun primers [209 sized].

AAMOI, I've never seen a shotgun version of such a firearm, but then, I've never seen a crested bandicoot either. There's time.

In summary then, to make things crystal clear -

You can legally OWN ANY obsolete calibre firearm, rifled or smoothbore, especially if it falls within the the foggy remit of antique.

IF, however, you either make ammunition for it with the intention of shooting it and the RIFLED gun is NOT on an FAC, you are breaking the law. The penalties are heavy in time and money.

IF you have a smoothbore version then it needs to be covered by your SGC. Again, making ammunition MIGHT be problematical, since you will be using every component that is also needed for a rifle cartridge - that one you'd have to figure out with your FEO.

tac

We seem to be at cross purposes on this matter.

I am fully aware of the legality of having ammunition for a firearm that is owned as an antique or curio.
That is not what I said. I merely pointed out that it is a grey area and even though ammunition is obsolete it can be obtained for some cailbres of firearm. (In this case 577/450).
As it states in the Act-They have to consider whether or not certain firearms are a threat to public safety before listing it as an obsolete cailbre.

Atb.

[tacfoley]

We seem to be at cross purposes on this matter.

I am fully aware of the legality of having ammunition for a firearm that is owned as an antique or curio.
That is not what I said. I merely pointed out that it is a grey area and even though ammunition is obsolete it can be obtained for some cailbres of firearm. (In this case 577/450).
As it states in the Act-They have to consider whether or not certain firearms are a threat to public safety before listing it as an obsolete cailbre.

Atb.

Then why did you pm me telling me that I was giving you crappy information? Sure, IF you live in the USA there are a couple of small-scale high-priced manufacturers there of obsolete cartridges - that's how I shoot my 52cal Spencer carbine at $4.50 a shot, but please advise me of a walk-in gun store in the UK where you can buy .577/450 M-H ammunition.

I'm done here.

tac

[davederrick]

2) After applying to get an FAC/SGC can I just transfer over the section 58 items to apply?

My FLO told me not to write it on my FAC, but to send the FAC to them to transfer S58 to S1. However, different FLO seem to think differently.