Registered User
I've done a search and read numerous threads about cannons and mini cannons but wanted to clarify something in relation to s58(2) and mini cannons.
I recently saw a pair of 13.5cm brass cannons for sale on evilbay with a bore 6mm in diameter. The seller stated in the listing that's these we're made approx 1920 an that they were live as the touch hole goes through the wall into the bore making it able to fire.
Now I missed the auction end and didn't bid but it got me thinking about their legality.
Withing s58(2) any muzzleloader is classed as 'antique', however seen as they could assumedly be filled with BP and fire a projectile, would this mean they then fall as a section 5 prohibited weapon due to barrel length or a section 2 requiring a SGC?
If someone could clarify if my thinking is right or correct me to get the right answer that would be great. I'm new to BP so trying to understand the law.
Last edited by $harp$hooter; 01-05-2013 at 06:16 PM. Reason: Spelling atrocity
Banned
I hear a can of worms opening here.
The subject of miniature cannons has been covered in great detail in the last month or so.
From what I've read on the subject, 1920 does not get a tick in the 'antique' box.
They may well be Section 1 Firearms, as they are capable of shooting a single projectile.
Best ask your FEO.
tac
Registered User
Thanks for that. Like I said I didn't buy them but it got me thinking as to their classification under the law. Does their size, with them having such a short barrel length have an effect on their classification?
Banned
As far as I can see, they are both Section 1 firearms - they are smooth-bore, true, but they are actually MADE to fire a single projectile - that alone makes them Section 1 firearms. Just like a short-barrelled replica of any BP gun.Originally Posted by $harp$hooter
The barrel is also less than 24" long, so they can not be classed as any kind of shotgun except a Section 1 shotgun.
IMO the seller has broken the law in offering them for sale. As Section 1 firearms he has sold them without recourse to licensing - a very serious offence in this country. Whoever bought them may or may not knowingly have broken the law, but broken it they have, as as we know from the experience of the poor bugger who found a shotgun in his garbage can a while back, not knowing the law can STILL earn you the five-year freedom from paying taxes.
tac
With our thoughts, we make the world
Still some for sale, but in the US. Not sure of their laws on selling cannons, but export/import will most defo be a non-starter.
"I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Lets start with typewriters." - Frank Lloyd Wright (1867-1959)
Registered User
Home Office Guidance to the Police says that the Section 58(2) exemptions apply to pre 1939.
If the mini cannon mentioned are indeed from 1920, then provided that they are held as a "curiosity or ornament" they would comply with the guidance and not need a licence.
Part I: Old weapons which should
benefit from exemption as antiques
under section 58 (2) of the Firearms
Act 1968
8.5 Pre-1939 weapons to benefit from
exemption as antiques are as follows:
a) All muzzle-loading firearms;
Remember though that if there is any intent to use them, then they cease to be afforded the exemption offered by Sec 58(2) and would be subject to licencing.
8.4 It remains the case that where an antique
firearm is possessed for any other purpose
than as a “curiosity or ornament”, all the
provisions of the Firearms Acts from 1968 to
1997 will continue to apply, including those
relating to certificate requirements. The intent
to fire the gun concerned, even with blank
charge or ammunition (for example for the
purposes of historical re-enactment displays),
would take it beyond the terms of “curiosity
or ornament”.
Notice that the guidance says 'intent' not the actual act of firing it.
An online copy of the guidance is available here http://www.dyfed-powys.police.uk/arc...irearmsLaw.pdf
I collect vintage Japanese air rifles & vintage Japanese pellets
Information sought about antique firearms with Japanese markings, do you have one ?
Registered User
Thank you Tantomurata for that reference on the guidance.
Banned
Sir -this VERY useful post, that makes the rather fuzzy law quite clear, even to me, should be made into a sticky, given that this is the second such thread this year.
Thanks again for posting it.
tac
One of the Blackhand Gang
This is already a sticky in the Rimfire/Centrefire/shotgun section...but errrrrr....it does not work.
Perhaps the mods could , as tac said, make it a sticky, at least this one works.
One of the Blackhand Gang
Just in case it goes off this site there is a link to it here as well.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...s-Guidance.pdf
Frock coat wearing, riverboat dwelling, southern gent
In the US, all muzzleloading guns are exempt from federal law. This is true whether they are antique, modern, whatever the bore, caliber, barrel length, rifled or smooth, pistol or shoulder gun or cannon.
State and local law? The mini cannon in question may be unregulated. Then again, it may be regulated as stringently as a modern pistol.
UBC's Police Pistol Manager
"Nasty, noisy things, revolvers, Count. Better stick to air-guns." Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure of the Mazarin Stone
With our thoughts, we make the world
Didn't know that Jim, thought only antiques were exempt. Nice bit of info, thanks.
"I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Lets start with typewriters." - Frank Lloyd Wright (1867-1959)
Frock coat wearing, riverboat dwelling, southern gent
No, all muzzleloaders are exempt here: as are all air / spring / CO2 guns, and all obsolete ignition system guns (such as pinfires), even if they're newly-manufactured.
Also, all cartridge guns (with the exception of fully-automatic ones, rifles shorter than 26 inches or with barrels shorter than 16, or shotguns shorter than 26 inches or with barrels shorter than 18), are exempt, IF they (the actual specimen you're holding in your hand) were manufactured prior to 1899.
This is rather like your "obsolete calibers" exception: but yours makes more sense. If I have in one hand a perfectly functional revolver chambered for the .32 S&W and made in 1898: that one's exempt from controls. But its twin brother, made in 1899, is controlled.
Also, since year of manufacture, not caliber, is the controlling point, a .32 rimfire revolver made in 1905, say, would be controlled just like a factory-fresh 10 millimeter automatic: even though I'd not be likely to find cartridges to fit it.
Whereas, a .22 rimfire made in 1895, say, would be uncontrolled: even though ammo for it is readily available!
Also, we don't have any exception here for deactivated guns. The government takes the position that "de"activated mean, "capable of being REactivated". So a deactivated gun would be subject to the same controls - if any - as its operable equivalent.
UBC's Police Pistol Manager
"Nasty, noisy things, revolvers, Count. Better stick to air-guns." Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure of the Mazarin Stone
With our thoughts, we make the world
Helpful post, thanks. 1899 was the thing I was thinking of.Thats how I got my Martini Henry out of the US, exported without restrictions as prior to 1899, imported without restrictions as obsolete calibre. Cool.
"I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Lets start with typewriters." - Frank Lloyd Wright (1867-1959)
Registered User
Curiosity or ornament so you can shoot it infrequently, no more than once or twice a year.
Hassle is, it's a pistol so Home Office approved ranges only.
After much searching I found a toy cannon with 24" from muzzle to point of ignition. Had to import it from Germany but worth the effort because it is a shotgun and the law is a lot less restrictive.
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