.577 Parker Hale Musketoon.

[acmsarh]

Stuck some in the post for you.

[steve medlock]

Tim,

I use beeswax/tallow mix lube in no particular proportions. I melt it in a tobacco tin and then dip the bullets (from the fridge)in using long nosed pliers. After they've cooled, I push then through the sizing die which just leaves the lube in the cannelures.

What about the powder you're using? I used to use the cheap medium stuff but noticed that my guns went woomph whereas everyone else' was making a bang/crack. Huge improvement when I switched to ts2 and again switching to Swiss.

Logically, it would seem that the bullets aren't getting the spin they need and skirt not engaging the rifling. It is a .577 presumably and not a .58?

Steve.

[tim56]

Many Thanks acmsarh.
Hi Steve, Thank you for the bullets you sent. I usually use TS2 but stocks where getting low so i bought some Kranks med which is what i used
on Sat. Mucky old stuff but definitely going bang rather than woosh. Think i have some Swiss fine in the box so may give that a go.
Barrel is rifled so 577 and not 58 cal. Only thing i can think at the moment is with using cheeper powder if the rifling got clogged up and thus
the bullets couldn't expand into the rifling.?? When i tried to load a patched round ball it was REALLY TIGHT going down. When using patched ball
the bore is in effect cleaned by the patch going down so not a problem as all the crud is pushed down into the powder. With a loose fitting minnie
the grooves in the bore arnt cleaned by loading. How many shots do you get before cleaning is required.???
As said, theres a reason I'm struggling and you guys arnt, i just aint found it yet. Tim

[andrew375]

A few thoughts and suggestions as a result of some 20+ years shooting a PH P61 Artillary Carbine (AKA musketoon).

First of all the mould I use is the Lyman 575213PH which is the mould that Parker Hale had made for their rifles. I have cast and fired several thousand bullets I have not had one tumble. Neither have I had to resort to any kind of sizing die.

In all cases of tumbling I have observed it was because the bullets were not up setting into the rifling as a result of either not enough powder or the bullets being cast out of something other than pure lead. As you have tried upping the charge it looks like your problem is the latter.

Standard load I use is 65 grains, by volume, of fine; either Henry Kranks or FO Triangle. Only difference is that FO Triangle is slightly cleaner. With either powder I can get off a full card without having to brush out. Lube is 50/50 (by volume) Beeswax / Vaseline. On the official MLA target I can usually keep all my shots inside the "8" ring at 100 yards.

The rifling on the "musketoon" is not shallow at all but progressive depth. That is it is deeper at the breech end than the muzzle. A variation on the "squeeze bore" concept. Just as it was on the original. One interesting consequence of this was that the variation that Parker Hale supplied smooth-bore for going on shotgun certificate were smooth bore at the muzzle but rifling gradually appeared as the further down the barrel you went. Lyman made an oversize version of their minie mould that apparently worked well in these barrels.

[tim56]

Hi Andrew and Thank you for your reply. Im using old roofing flashing and fluxing with a commercial flux to cast my bullets.
The 575213 mold i have you can deform the skirt and easily scratch a groove into them with your finger nail so think we are
ok there. Steve sent me some of his bullets that work fine in his gun and these also tumbled in mine so although Iv never
heard of progressive depth rifling i will will do some homework on that point, my rifling is certainly very shallow at the muzzle
end.
Plan of action is;
a; Stick to TS2 powder till problem sorted.
b; Use a drop tube so as not to let powder get stuck on the crud from the previous shot.
c; Start using a bees wax / tallow mix lube instead of wonderlube.

Best Wishes for a Happy New Year, Tim

[tacfoley]

A few thoughts and suggestions as a result of some 20+ years shooting a PH P61 Artillary Carbine (AKA musketoon).

First of all the mould I use is the Lyman 575213PH which is the mould that Parker Hale had made for their rifles. I have cast and fired several thousand bullets I have not had one tumble. Neither have I had to resort to any kind of sizing die.

In all cases of tumbling I have observed it was because the bullets were not up setting into the rifling as a result of either not enough powder or the bullets being cast out of something other than pure lead. As you have tried upping the charge it looks like your problem is the latter.

Standard load I use is 65 grains, by volume, of fine; either Henry Kranks or FO Triangle. Only difference is that FO Triangle is slightly cleaner. With either powder I can get off a full card without having to brush out. Lube is 50/50 (by volume) Beeswax / Vaseline. On the official MLA target I can usually keep all my shots inside the "8" ring at 100 yards.

The rifling on the "musketoon" is not shallow at all but progressive depth. That is it is deeper at the breech end than the muzzle. A variation on the "squeeze bore" concept. Just as it was on the original. One interesting consequence of this was that the variation that Parker Hale supplied smooth-bore for going on shotgun certificate were smooth bore at the muzzle but rifling gradually appeared as the further down the barrel you went. Lyman made an oversize version of their minie mould that apparently worked well in these barrels.

All of this.

Except that lead flashing has progressively become somewhat less than lead, and more of a mixture of unknown pot metal sh!te over the years, and is extremely suspect as far a 99% purity is concerned. If you have a round ball mould of ca. 454'' available to use, use it to cast a single ball. If it IS lead of the quality that it should be, it SHOULD weigh 126gr - anything less than that, and it ain't.

tac

[tim56]

Hi tac, lead supply is about 25 years old ish. A mate of mine worked in roofing and stashed away all
his off cuts for years then when he moved i got the lot for beer money. Sadly supplies are now starting
to run low. Have molds for .451 .457 and .562. Will weigh em all and see if i can work it out. Tim

Additional..Just weighed a .451" round ball made with the same lead and it weighs 139 grns. The .457"
weighs in at 143 grns and the .562" weighs 263 grns.

[tacfoley]

Hi tac, lead supply is about 25 years old ish. A mate of mine worked in roofing and stashed away all
his off cuts for years then when he moved i got the lot for beer money. Sadly supplies are now starting
to run low. Have molds for .451 .457 and .562. Will weigh em all and see if i can work it out. Tim

Additional..Just weighed a .451" round ball made with the same lead and it weighs 139 grns. The .457"
weighs in at 143 grns and the .562" weighs 263 grns.

Your lead is good.

tac

[andrew375]

If your lead is good then it has to be the powder. I've always used fine in my P.61 but with medium I would put the load up to at least 80 grs. particularly with low cost powders like Henry Kranks generic. Swiss and Vectan powders are another matter. If bullets fly straight at this load then decrease the load until you reach the point they tumble. The fact is you need enough breech pressure to upset the bullet at the outset. Failing to do this will let the propellent gasses to blow by, effectively floating to bullet off the barrel wall. The change in performance in the two conditions is quite marked, for a start you get a much more authoritative sound from the muzzle blast. You do not get a condition of slightly obturating or mostly obturating; it either is or it isn't.

I witnessed someone shooting a 2 Band at 100 yards who thought he could reduce the powder charge to just 60gr. to reduce the cost of shooting. Every bullet hit the range floor about ten yards from the target and I could actually hear the warbling sound of the bullets flying end over end. He did manage a couple on the target but only because the target was in way as the bullet bounced up in to the backstop It took me a lot of persuading to to convince him to up the powder charge. Just an extra 5 gr. made the difference; snappier muzzle report and round holes in the black. The extra five gr. would have only added another 60fps at most so that in itself couldn't account for the 3 feet+ change in the height of impact. What made the difference was that the powder gases now exited after the bullet instead of before.

Do not bother with drop tubes for your powder you are just complicating things. At this stage you need to concentrate on getting round holes in your target. With both my P.61 carbine and P.53 "3 band" rifle my loading process is powder into measure then into barrel followed by the bullet rammed home with the ramrod, cap on, fire. No fouling shots, no swabbing out, no golf caddy full of rods and brushes. BTW, you do know to always shoot with the ram rod in place don't you? The spring that grips the ram rod is tensioned against the barrel, failure to have the ram rod in place will (usually) cause bullets to go any where other than where you point the rifle.

One more thing, the slide top 100 round boxes that Remington .22 LR comes in are just the right size to take 20 .577 Minies.

[tim56]

80 grns. ??? Should be interesting.!!! Will find out on Sat Tim

[andrew375]

Lube. Whatever lube you use, it goes on the outside - not in the base cavity!!

Do not use grease or conventional smokeless lubes like alox / beeswax, Bullets shoot ok but accuracy is crap and fouling is unmanageable. Beeswax / Tallow (25/75) or Beeswax / vaseline (50/50) are pretty much the standard.

[tim56]

Had a session on sat at the range. Using a PL7 target and free standing at a range of 50m.

First the 577611 Lyman bullets i made (same mold as Steves.) with wonderlube smeared around the circumference
filling the grooves but not in the base with 80grns of Kranks med. Fired 10 shots of which only 5 hit the target and
one of which was a tumbler. One clipped the top right hand corner of the frame while one went in the bull and two
went low so no accuracy at all in my gun. (at the moment)

Cleaned the bore and tried 10 (all i had) of my old 575213 bullets again with wonderlube and 80grns of Kranks
med. 8 shots in the black but god knows where the other 2 went, NO tumblers.

Cleaned the bore again and tried 562" round ball with a .012" patch soaked in melted wonderlube. (my old 2 band
loved these) After 5 shots with no holes in the target i got one of the guys there to spot for me while i shot leaning
on the bench. Shooting very low so brought the sites up a bit and managed to get a few on the target but with no
consistency at all. Tried loads between 50 and 80 grns but this rifle as of yet don't like balls!!!

Have ordered bees wax and tallow off the internet and made a fresh batch of 575213 bullets plus Andy has sent me
a few of his LEE ones to try so next sat i will have another bash at getting it right.
Mate Ady,s bringing the 2 band down as well so can compare results.

Finally many Thanks to all for your advice and input on this thread, especially Steve and Andy who sent me some of
their bullets to try. Its good to know that there are others who like myself are fans of these old guns even if you do
sometimes get mucky and go home stinking of eggs/cow muck. Far more interesting than just buying ammo and shooting
it without any real input into making it work.
Best Wishes and a Happy New Year to all. Tim

[tim56]

Tallow has arrived today so ready to have a go at mixing a bees wax / tallow lube. Would 1 part wax by volume to
3 parts tallow be about right.? Am assuming its just a case of melting them in an old saucepan, give it a good mix
around and dipping my bullets in with a pair of long nose pliers to fill the grooves.?? Tim

[gtpkeeper]

here tim
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgNVPC2wmWI

[tim56]

Just got back from the range and we seem to be getting there. 75 grains of FO/A black powder loaded with a drop
tube with a 575213 minnie dipped in a pot of melted bees wax/tallow lube mix using a pair of long nose pliers to grip
the skirt so as not to get any in the cavity. Using a PL12 target taped to a reversed PL7 to give a smaller black area
with a large paler back area at 50m free standing it put 8 shots in the black out of 10, the two outside the black by
about 4" were pulled by me, knew id done it even before i looked through the spotting scope. Well chuffed.
Many Thanks again to all who offered their advice and especially the guys who sent me some of their bullets to try, just
need to do it again now to prove it wasn't a fluke.!! Tim