HW45 answers

[slugger]

in that case why are you here on the tinternet, you should be upto your ankles in delrin-swarf by now

[slugger]

well it arrived today...test fired about 5 pellets, quick chrono [5.3] and pulled it to bits the odd bit of swarf, the lube they use from the factory looks too runny [hence why they all diesel I spose]. so I shall de-burr all the cocking slots/polish the piston / polish the spring ends / make some slip-washers/ size the spring guide so it can be fitted at the stationary end/ lube lightly with cv grease, and hopefully end up with a smooth and slick 45........

[clarky]

well it arrived today...test fired about 5 pellets, quick chrono [5.3] and pulled it to bits the odd bit of swarf, the lube they use from the factory looks too runny [hence why they all diesel I spose]. so I shall de-burr all the cocking slots/polish the piston / polish the spring ends / make some slip-washers/ size the spring guide so it can be fitted at the stationary end/ lube lightly with cv grease, and hopefully end up with a smooth and slick 45........

I would remove any burrs (I found a slight burr on cocking slot underside) polish spring ends. NOT add slip rings as they will not fit.
Do NOT let grease come anywhere near it. Very slight smear of Weblube on piston head for assembly but keep it down. You could add slight drop to cocking slot levers to prevent wear.
Finally, absolutely do not...I repeat do not....let any grease or oil come into contact with the paint finish of the outside frame.
People seem to love wiping theirs over with oil but leave it absolutely dry. Any slight petroleum emollients or silicones attack the paint surface. Have a look at year old 45s and you can see the patchy blotches on the surface finish....its a class matt finish alright but nowhere near as resistant to oils as the Tempests baked finish.
Similarly the FAS and the 75 prone to the same problem.

[TRS1]

I would remove any burrs (I found a slight burr on cocking slot underside) polish spring ends. NOT add slip rings as they will not fit.
Do NOT let grease come anywhere near it. Very slight smear of Weblube on piston head for assembly but keep it down. You could add slight drop to cocking slot levers to prevent wear.
Finally, absolutely do not...I repeat do not....let any grease or oil come into contact with the paint finish of the outside frame.
People seem to love wiping theirs over with oil but leave it absolutely dry. Any slight petroleum emollients or silicones attack the paint surface. Have a look at year old 45s and you can see the patchy blotches on the surface finish....its a class matt finish alright but nowhere near as resistant to oils as the Tempests baked finish.
Similarly the FAS and the 75 prone to the same problem.

What would be best to wipe down the body of it with? Or is it simply a case of keep it dry, and if it gets wet just dry it off with a dry and clean towel or rag?
Cheers, Tim

[slugger]

buddy of mine has a blackstar too, had it for yrs, he's been wiping it down with 3in1 oil , seems fine

[clarky]

buddy of mine has a blackstar too, had it for yrs, he's been wiping it down with 3in1 oil , seems fine

I doubt that because the Black Star has not been out years.... DO NOT wipe your 45s down with 3 in one.
The reason being that HW used an aircraft grade aluminium which is quite tough in regard of wear and tear but its finish of anodizing hates oils.
There is of course absolutely no need to use oil to wipe it down as its made from aircraft grade alloy, and as such 90 percent corrosion free unless you start hitting it with acids......which you get in some emollients.
Its ironic that the cheap alloy casting of the Webley Tempest could not be anodized but better takes a hard baked on finish which is not subject to this problem.
Always keep oils away from Anodizing/Parkerizing

[Adam77K]

Well all I can say is I've owned my 75 for 18 years and it's had many external wipes down with oil. Initially silicone oil back in the 90s and more recently ballistol and it still looks like new.

[airgunnut]

There is a common complaint of dieseling spoiling accuracy and reported poor showing from the MPL leagues suggesting similar problems.

My compression calcs etc revealed that the gun hits a flash point threshold very easily.

The key is to clean it out completely and run it totally dry.

I found that lubed pellets have the same effect, the air as noted is at the flash point of some pellet lubes, but to run the gun dry? I would look into better lubes (for the gun) with a higher flash point

[tinbum]

Can you not use slip washers due to the spring binding! If so, has anyone tried tophats, spring guides, slip washers with a coil or two less spring?

If it were possible I think a smoother 45 running 4-5fpe would be the wasps-nipples!

[clarky]

Can you not use slip washers due to the spring binding! If so, has anyone tried tophats, spring guides, slip washers with a coil or two less spring?

If it were possible I think a smoother 45 running 4-5fpe would be the wasps-nipples!

First whatever you do don't use Silicone oil/grease externally on any gun. The emollient acids in silicone will ruin any finish, even bluing. Don't do it.
Yes obviously you could use a top hat but would need to remove the same amount of material from the main guide to allow the mainspring to cock.
Essentially, Beeman set the spring design so that it was almost fully spring bound with the std parts. Its a true statement that virtually nothing can be done to improve the 45.
The main argument lies with which way round you have the guide but personally I found a reasonable improvement in accuracy for a negligible loss (to me) in velocity with it fitting in the traditional manner. A Delrin guide will reduce guide rod friction on the mainspring for a small gain but the std item is already a perfect fit....so no gain in vibration damping was noticed by myself, except with it fitted forwards.
I would recommend you don't remove coils as its often fraught with problems. Introduction of heat into the spring ends. Getting the end square etc.

[clarky]

First whatever you do don't use Silicone oil/grease externally on any gun. The emollient acids in silicone will ruin any finish, even bluing. Don't do it.
Yes obviously you could use a top hat but would need to remove the same amount of material from the main guide to allow the mainspring to cock.
Essentially, Beeman set the spring design so that it was almost fully spring bound with the std parts. Its a true statement that virtually nothing can be done to improve the 45.
The main argument lies with which way round you have the guide but personally I found a reasonable improvement in accuracy for a negligible loss (to me) in velocity with it fitting in the traditional manner. A Delrin guide will reduce guide rod friction on the mainspring for a small gain but the std item is already a perfect fit....so no gain in vibration damping was noticed by myself, except with it fitted forwards.
I would recommend you don't remove coils as its often fraught with problems. Introduction of heat into the spring ends. Getting the end square etc.

Results
After turning up a replica solid Nylon guide (self lube Nylon 66) with 2mm removed from the base of the guide to allow a 2mm slip ring down inside the piston. (Guide fitted conventional muzzle end) I got no noticeable reduction in vibration, or increase in smoothness that i could detect. Over the Chrony i did get 9fps avg (13fps high) but i do not really view this as being worthwhile if you do not have the means to perform the machine work.
Conclusions..
Your HW45 must be run virtually dry with just a meniscus over the piston and guide rod. Even then you might still get the odd flash but Weblube rubbed into the metal well but wiped back off should leave some of the lube behind in the surface structure of the metal.... i got no dieseling and group size responded accordingly. Your guide rod can go down inside the piston for 30 fps jump in velocity as it increases the inertia due to mass increase but responds with approx 10mm extra on your group size .177 cal (.22 not tested) My Nylon guide gave me 10fps back....so i will stand the 20fps drop and take the better accuracy of the guide conventionally fitted.
Well thumbed Hobby gave the best accuracy/velocity combo.
The gun is already near perfect but too hot for lubes.

[TonyL]

Yep,
Both the .177 that I had years ago (should never have let it go!) and the .22 that I currently own love Hobbies.

As regards lubrication, a couple of thoughts:-

If it's better to run dry or very nearly dry, how about burnishing some moly into the cylinder walls / piston? This could take the form of either dry moly powder, used sparingly, and worked in, or the Dri-Slide type lubes.

On quite a few springer rifle threads, many have used Krytox. Now, if I remember correctly from those threads, it's very expensive, but you only use very tiny amounts and its flashpoint is far higher than other lubes ????? I also seem to remember that it's PTFE based and that all surfaces should be scrupulously clean (obvious anyway!) and that, if switching away from Krytox, it's the devil itself to remove all the tiny traces that have to be removed.

There has often also been talk (more so in the US) of the effectiveness and suitability of the Tungsten Disulphide based lubes.

[airgunnut]

Wounder if this would be any good? http://www.tetraproducts.com/product_view.asp?ID=1

[clarky]

Yep,
Both the .177 that I had years ago (should never have let it go!) and the .22 that I currently own love Hobbies.

As regards lubrication, a couple of thoughts:-

If it's better to run dry or very nearly dry, how about burnishing some moly into the cylinder walls / piston? This could take the form of either dry moly powder, used sparingly, and worked in, or the Dri-Slide type lubes.

On quite a few springer rifle threads, many have used Krytox. Now, if I remember correctly from those threads, it's very expensive, but you only use very tiny amounts and its flashpoint is far higher than other lubes ????? I also seem to remember that it's PTFE based and that all surfaces should be scrupulously clean (obvious anyway!) and that, if switching away from Krytox, it's the devil itself to remove all the tiny traces that have to be removed.

There has often also been talk (more so in the US) of the effectiveness and suitability of the Tungsten Disulphide based lubes.

Yes that is what I was really describing with wiping oil over the piston but back off it....just didn't use the term burnishing as you correctly put it!
The problem with this 45 is it flashes like a bigun with just about any lube you care to use in it, especially moly. Its due to the compression ratio against transfer port dia, also high power mainspring leading to very high temperatures.
I have had a long held belief that moly is terrible stuff in airguns, being both dirty and bad for dieseling.
While its true that the Moly has a higher flashpoint than most other oils (as is often advertised in the sales pitch) it uses a carrier oil which separates out. This can clearly be seen in a tub of SM50 or Moly. This carrier agent flashes like dynamite when not controlled by the high flashpoint mix.
Its not as simple as ABC....RUN THE 45 DRY or it struggles in accuracy terms.
Yes Moly can reduce coefficient of friction on paper but it is also sticky, especially when colder.

[banditrob12]

I have been reading this post with interest as I have been tuning my own HW45 Blackstar in .22 over the last few weeks.

Experimenting with different spring guides made out of Delrin and stainless, for my own particular gun, a solid stainless guide fitted inside the piston to give it weight, running a standard spring, I opened the transfer port up 0.5mm and reprofiled it on the cylinder end plug, I use Walther piston grease sparingly on the piston, no dieseling, consistency in single figures. Mine prefers superdome, real accurate at 10m

My son has a large collection of HW45s, my Blackstar in its current tuned state shoots better than any of his in comparison.

Just regarding external maintenance, silicone is fine to use on alloy or blueing, Abbey even manufacture a cloth impregnated with silicone. I worked in the gun trade for a number of years and every time we handled any gun (being air rifle, shot gun, or pistol) we always used to give it a wipe over with an Abbey cloth, no problems whatsoever.