New Webley Tempest - cocking problem.

[Gerard]

I ordered a half-dozen of the Tempest/Senior/Premier etc. springs last year from Protek and am very happy with their functionality in my 1990's Tempest and 1950's Senior, both in .22". For general plinking I don't need the reportedly higher power of the Turkish model, and increased cocking effort wouldn't be welcome as it's nice being able to cock these easily. Hardly think about it, there's so little effort involved with decent technique and no need for a knee to rest on.

[Aimstraight]

That's good news. I think this is the way I may go with my Turkish Tempest to convert it into something that will be a pleasure to use...like my Brummie Webleys.

Let's see if PaulR manages to fit the Brummie spring into the Turkish Tempest with no problems.

[laverdabru]

That sounds even worse than the usual complaints.

Webley MK1s are bad enough, and in .22 cal, their barrels have been known to bend under the cocking pressure.

#

I remember having a 'banana barrel' .22 Mk 1. Think it was quite a common problem.

Bru.

[PaulR]

A non post really - didn't get around to the swap out last weekend - will try in the next week or so.

[PaulR]

Whoops - double posted - so edited.

[PaulR]

OK so I think I have it sorted.

Look at the photo link - it shows the original Tempest at the top. The spring and guide are longer than the spring and guide of the Turkish Tempest at the bottom.

The original spring has 35 coils and the Turkish 32. What the photo does not show is that the Turkish spring is made of slightly thicker wire which makes it harder to compress.

Now then your natural question would be "Did I swap?". No I didn't. Both pistols are near mint and every (amateur) intervention by me could have marked either one - there was no point. I guess it was the guides that decided me - lengths determine when spring bound and it was obvious to me that swapping guides and springs in identical sized chambers would produce predictable results i.e. one more difficult to cock and the other easier.

To me the answer to having a usable Turkish pistol would be to firstly just get an "old" length spring and swap it out. If it became spring bound then you would need the "old" longer guide.

Hope this helps.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/y...t/IMG_0578.jpg

[Aimstraight]

That is very informative. The fact that the spring in the Turkish Tempest is shorter with 3 less coils, and yet it is harder to cock backs up that overall it is a significantly stiffer spring made of heavier gauge wire.

I am going to replace it with an original Tempest spring to see how that works out. Hopefully it will make cocking easier and more importanty smoother.

[oling]

There will be the reason these things are so stiff to cock... 4.4ft/lbs... I had no idea they were producing that much as I thought mine was hovering around low to mid 3s: http://www.gunmart.net/gun_review/webley_tempest_pistol

[Rickenbacker]

Interesting... whats with the shorty spring guide in the new version I wonder?

[Aimstraight]

Interesting... whats with the shorty spring guide in the new version I wonder?

Not sure, maybe the stiffer spring is less inclinded to shift around and does not need as much internal support? I notice that Chambers do list a different part number for the guide in the early and later Tempests.

Putting the original Tempest spring into the Turkish Tempest might need some more thought. The effect of the shorter spring guide and checking that the spring properly fits (on the guide and inside the cylinder when relaxed and compressed). Anyway it's worth a try as I tend not use the Turkish one so much due to it's rough and heavy cocking action.

[Rickenbacker]

Not sure, maybe the stiffer spring is less inclinded to shift around and does not need as much internal support? I notice that Chambers do list a different part number for the guide in the early and later Tempests.

Putting the original Tempest spring into the Turkish Tempest might need some more thought. The effect of the shorter spring guide and checking that the spring properly fits (on the guide and inside the cylinder when relaxed and compressed). Anyway it's worth a try as I tend not use the Turkish one so much due to it's rough and heavy cocking action.

Hrm, It'd be interesting to see the old vs new pistons, although I doubt the stroke is much (or any) different... not longer, because the old one uses the full throw of the barrel for cocking. Not shorter because the new one makes so much power!

Anyhoo, the factory guides seem woefully thin by today's standards, as seen on this Premier HERE for example. And a shorter one is only gonna be worse, I guess...

I know Tinbum made up a delrin guide & tophat set for an old version Tempest that I was kind enough to sell him, because it wouldn't shoot straight.

Don't know if he chopped off the metal guide or sleeved it, but he was very pleased with how it turned out.

Might be worth asking him a few questions if you want to get yours shooting nice

[PaulR]

Not sure, maybe the stiffer spring is less inclinded to shift around and does not need as much internal support? I notice that Chambers do list a different part number for the guide in the early and later Tempests.

Putting the original Tempest spring into the Turkish Tempest might need some more thought. The effect of the shorter spring guide and checking that the spring properly fits (on the guide and inside the cylinder when relaxed and compressed). Anyway it's worth a try as I tend not use the Turkish one so much due to it's rough and heavy cocking action.

I agree it is worth a try.

I am willing to bet though that if you put the old (longer) spring into the new tempest then you will need the longer guide - just to keep it straight without graunching. Lower power but with usability.

I think it might be worth doing though as having reassembled my Turkish one to original spec it is a waste of space - far too hard to use for more than a very few shots.

[wmp50075]

today i had to replace the spring in my turkish tempest as it had broken in four places. i was suprised to find that the spring guide looks to be a similar length to a birmingham example at around 68mm. i have yet to take apart one of my birmingham tempests to compare this length with. perhaps paulR would be able to tell me the length of the guide on his turkish example, or perhaps someone else can measure a birmingham guide for me?
anyway, i replaced the spring with a 37 coil new old stock webley example. i do not know which model this spring was made for but it does fit the guide. there is no graunching or binding so i am quite pleased.......
the dissasembly of my turkish example started with trying to replace the small spring between the small and large cocking links. removing the link pin was a nighmare as they are almost riveted in. in an attempt to remove the pin the end of the long link shattered. i did source a replacement birmingham long link and had to use birmingham roll pins as the hole sizes on the old and new links are very slightly different.
it is cocking reasonably smoothly so i am keeping my fingers crossed that the birmingham link pins hold in place.
most interested to hear what you think. has anyone else had to replace parts on these turkish examples?

andyL

[PaulR]

today i had to replace the spring in my turkish tempest as it had broken in four places. i was suprised to find that the spring guide looks to be a similar length to a birmingham example at around 68mm. i have yet to take apart one of my birmingham tempests to compare this length with. perhaps paulR would be able to tell me the length of the guide on his turkish example, or perhaps someone elso can measure a birmingham guide for me?
anyway, i replaced the spring with a 37 coil new old stock webley example. i do not know which model this spring was made for but it does fit the guide. there is no graunching or binding so i am quite pleased.......
the dissasembly of my turkish example started with trying to replace the small spring between the small and large cocking links. removing the link pin was a nighmare as they are almost rivited in. in an attempt to remove the pin the end of the long link shattered. i did source a replacement birmingham long link and had to use birmingham roll pins as the hole sizes on the old and new links are very slightly different.
it is cocking reasonably smoothly so i am keeping my fingers crossed that the birmingham link pins hold in place.
most interested to hear what you think. has anyone else had to replace parts on these turkish examples?

andyL

An interesting post Andy.

I did not measure the respective spring guides but, as you can see from the photo, the Birmingham one is much longer. I am a bit confused when you say the Turkish guide "looks to be a similar length to a birmingham example at around 68mm" but that you have not actually dismantled one of your Birmingham ones to compare. I have and it isn't!!

I am also not sure why you felt the need to dismantle the cocking links. Replacement of the main spring would not require this - did you have another problem?

[wmp50075]

the spring guide on my turkish tempest does not look to be as short as the example you pictured of yours, hence the question. i need to find someone who has either dissasembled their brum tempest or is about to do so that they can measure the length of the guide. better still, someone who has taken apart their turkish example and measured it. from your photo the turkish example you have looks to be less than 68mm. i may be wrong.....
the reason i took out the link pin was to replace the link spring as it had broken. by doing this the long link broke so in replacing that i also had to take out the link pin which secures the long link to the barrel. long story.
the main spring was a separate issue as i had noticed it had been grinding for a couple of days prior. whilst i was addressing the link pin/long link/link spring issue i though it best to also check the main spring. hence the discovery of the broken spring.