UK Law & Semi Auto Muzzle Loading

[Solvo]

Does anyone know if UK law would prohibit a Semi-Automatic muzzle loading pistol?

There are a couple of design hurdles to make one work, but the basic principle would be a muzzle loading cylinder (as used in Nitro conversions or the Alfa-Proj etc) actuated on a mechanism similar to a Webley Fosbery.

Result would be either a revolver, or possibly a harmonica type block pre-loaded outside the pistol with the usual paraphernalia but with the ability to self-index.

I can't see any reason it would not be legal - other than because it's not been banned yet on account of no such firearm existing.

Any thoughts?

[Mr. Gen]

Its all a bit 'Prince Andrew'.......whilst not strictly illegal to the letter of the law as things stand, you are never going to get away with it in the end.....

[the logun-ator]

im out my safety zone,in the big boys muzzeloaders playground but...
they way i interpret it is of said none exsistant gun IS self indexing and not self loading then it should be legal
theres a few airguns available today.there pretty much automatic in as such as fast as you pull the trigger they fire,not as in double action though
there legal as they fire from the mag(self indexing) and arnt loaded in to the barrel
and i bid you good by,back to the little boys airgun pages i go

[tacfoley]

im out my safety zone,in the big boys muzzeloaders playground but...they way i interpret it is of said none exsistant gun IS self indexing and not self loading then it should be legal
theres a few airguns available today.there pretty much automatic in as such as fast as you pull the trigger they fire,not as in double action though there legal as they fire from the mag(self indexing) and arnt loaded in to the barrel and i bid you good by,back to the little boys airgun pages i go

This is precisely my understanding of the way that a handgun may be self-indexing, but not self-loading. And, of course, every BP revolver ever made operates in this manner.

However, a word of caution. Here in mainland UK, and ignoring pro tem those Section 7-something handguns, ANY attempt to use the ENERGY derived from propellant gases to 'drive' a handgun is construed as being a de facto semi-automatically firing handgun. IOW, simply firing it not only sends the shot out of the barrel, but operates the mechanism ti ready the next shot available at the next press of the trigger with no other effort resuired on the part of the shoote./

Our five-shot air pistols, pellet-firing and BB-firing handguns are not classed as firearms under the Act, since their muzzle energy is limited to 6ft lbs or less.

On a lighter note, Youtube's Hickock45 made a short movie on getting a regular Glock pistol to shoot BP cartridges...for a while. The MESS was unbelievable.

And as a bye-the-bye - you state that no such handgun exists, and that nobody has ever tried it. You might care to look up the Zylab Patriot .32cal five-shot pistol from a few years back....Thanks to poster 1066 for this response to one of my posts from a few years back.

When our pistols were confiscated, our competition shooting came to a dead stop. We were allowed muzzle loaders so the .32 Patriot pistol was designed to allow us to still compete in UIT competitions by conforming to the rules. It's a 5 shot UIT pistol in .32 calibre but is a muzzle loader.

The 5 shot magazine is pre-loaded and fits across the action. It's advanced for each shot by manually racking back the action. The UIT course for the duelling phase has the targets face away for 7 seconds and face for 3 seconds, plenty of time to rack the action and be ready for the next face.

And here - Want a legal .32 centre-fire pistol for use in the UK? - The Patriot is a Section 1 centre-fire pistol. It is a "muzzle-loader" because one loads a 5-shot breech block with individual components from the front (muzzle) end (it comes with two loading blocks which means 10 rounds!). It uses Alliant Bullseye powder and 98g wadcutter bullets, there are no ram rods, patches or grease.
It is single shot, re-cocked by racking back the cocking lever on either side of the barrel. A semi-auto version could be introduced if demand develops.
It has a fixed anatomical grip, and a simple two-stage trigger adjustable for travel stop and first stage weight, reach and cant. A LH version may be introduced. The rear sight platform extends back over the grip and is click adjustable for windage and elevation.
Overall length is 268mm and it is 125mm high. It weighs 1050g without the firing block. Sight radius is 215mm.
The pistol is supplied with a special de-capping and bullet seating press, a modified Lee loader for priming, and a brass powder thrower which delivers 1g of powder.

Detailed description here - http://westernshootingsupplies.com/page39.htm

[Solvo]

Thanks for the input.

I have a Steyr H5 SA rifle, so i'm quite familiar with the Airgun side of the argument (not least it raged on these forums for over a year).

I do own a Patriot .32, and it's an exceptional pistol. Only downside is the company shut down a few years back so they're hard to come by and spares etc are turning to gold dust. Needless to say the semi auto development never happened.
Took a year of searching before I finally got hold of one.

The design of the Patriot is the inspiration behind this idea - combining the features of the Patriot with a top slide mechanism as seen in the Fosbery design would allow for a semi automatic version which is recoil operated and providing the overall weight of the slide assembly was kept low it should have pretty negligible recoil. The Patriot recoil is already very light so with a bit of careful design the slide movement should be able to perfectly absorb almost all recoil.
Only reason i lean towards a cylinder over the Patriot harmonica is that once you self index you introduce both a sideways weight shift which may affect accuracy and the issue of the recoiling slide potentially unseating the loaded chambers not yet covered by the breach area.

Powder fouling is a concern with self indexing, but the Patriot can fire 20 shots on Blue-Dot before it needs a quick wipe down - I'm led to believe Vhit N310 is cleaner burning and will give the same load characteristics, I have some on order to test with.


The real question here is if such a design could be UK Legal, if so I'll continue on the design path and see what I can come up with.

[tacfoley]

The design of the Patriot is the inspiration behind this idea - combining the features of the Patriot with a top slide mechanism as seen in the Fosbery design would allow for a semi automatic version which is recoil operated and providing the overall weight of the slide assembly was kept low it should have pretty negligible recoil. The Patriot recoil is already very light so with a bit of careful design the slide movement should be able to perfectly absorb almost all recoil.

Perhaps I ought to have mentioned that any mechanical action contained within the firearm that LEADS to reloading that is based on the explosion of propellant gases, like BP or nitro, is deemed to be a self-loader. In your case, as I understand your explanation, the physical recoil DRIVES the mechanism of advancing the pre-loaded magazine through the firing mechanism, right?

You claim familiarity with the Webley-Fosbery revolver, so you must know that it was called a self-loading revolver back in the days of its patent.

I can only wish you luck in trying to convince the PTB that you are making a LEGAL self-loading pistol that does NOT use a cartridge. However, you'll need some real weasel-wording to get around the fact that although you are not loading a cartridge per se, you ARE loading a pre-measured propellant charge that has a bullet already in front of it and a primer of some kind behind it to light it up.

It WOULD be legal in Northern Ireland, as is any other kind of handgun, but on mainland GB, I am 99.99% convinced that it would be illegal, as, in this instance, would be the making of it unless you are a Section 5 licence-holder.

[Solvo]

Thanks Tac, cleared up the messagebox.

Perhaps I ought to have mentioned that any mechanical action contained within the firearm that LEADS to reloading that is based on the explosion of propellant gases, like BP or nitro, is deemed to be a self-loader. In your case, as I understand your explanation, the physical recoil DRIVES the mechanism of advancing the pre-loaded magazine through the firing mechanism, right?
.....

Yes, exactly, and this is the bit that concerns me in the wording.

The only issue I have with the description of the Fosbery patent is that I cant find any reference to the idea of a self-indexing or even manually indexed mechanism from that long ago. This leads me to believe that firearms that would today be described as self indexing were described as self-loading back then.

I'd love to know how Zylab planned to modify the Patriot to be semi-auto though as I cant see any way to achieve it without adding a direct gas impingement mechanism, though this might have been in the original design as the cocking mechanism and its return spring already runs the entire length of the barrel.

[tacfoley]

Manual indexing is fine - as in the mechanical advancement or rotation of a cylinder or block-type repository of ammunition - ANY revolver cocked by the action of hauling back the hammer, or, in the case of the Patriot, by manually racking the action to present the next load. AAMOF, EVERY revolver ever made is self-indexing, but that is because the presentation of the next shot is made by the manual mechanism lining it up, not because the gun has somehow saved you the trouble of using your thumb.

It is the MECHANICAL advancement of any of the aforesaid magazines, derived from the self-contained mechanism of the gun, that is a no-no here on mainland UK. The German Mauser Zig-zag Reichsrevolver required you to squeeze the overlong trigger to rotate the cylinder, but the Webley-Fosberry used the recoil of the top half of the action, and therefore got called, correctly, a self-loading revolver, not only by the makers, but also by the Patent Office.

You seem intent on making something that is plainly illegal here in Great Britain.

[1066]

Much as I endorse the concept, and the mechanical challenges could surely be overcome with a bit of advanced tinkering, I think you would be unwise the invest too much in this project.

When the MARS/Lever release ban was passed under the Offensive Weapons Bill I feel an important line was crossed. These rifles were bought perfectly legally and conformed to all existing legislation but were subsequently banned with very little opposition. The point is, these rifles were banned, not based on EVIDENCE that they were specially dangerous (no crimes were ever committed with these rifles) but because a group of ill-informed people THOUGHT they might be especially dangerous.

The next obvious extension to this skewed thinking is those nasty "military/tactical" type rifles look especially dangerous and could just as easily be banned, not based on evidence but purely on someone's idea of how an acceptable rifle should look.

So - See where I'm going with this. You carefully read the small print and find there no reasons you can't actually produce a semi-auto muzzle loader, you spend x thousands and x years in development and it becomes a reality. Some do-gooder Home Secretary out to demonstrate how she/he can make the world a safer place can now ban this, virtually on a nod.

An easy way to make a semi-auto muzzle loader would be to used the Fosberry system, just simply have a removable cylinder and charge it the same as the other nitro revolvers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ature=emb_logo

Any one not sure what the Zylab looks like here is my pistol: Can't post photos for some reason.

http://i.imgur.com/TUR93T2m.jpg

[tacfoley]

Let's just hit the 'back-to-basic' button here for a moment, please, and stay with the handgun under discussion.

If the handgun fires a new load every time you squeeze the trigger, and only because YOU have squeezed the trigger, like an old-fashioned cap gun, then it is manually operated. It is legal, just as a six-shot Adams double-action percussion revolver is legally a Section 1 firearm.

If the handgun fires a new load because the energy of the propellant is somehow arranged to cock the handgun and advance the next load for firing at a subsequent squeeze of the trigger, then is is plainly a self-loading handgun, no matter that it is a nitro or black powder shooting firearm.

Note the wording in the description of the W-F revolver - 'The Webley–Fosbery Self-Cocking Automatic Revolver was an unusual, recoil-operated, automatic revolver.....'

Here on mainland UK, such firearms are the province of Section 7 category firearms.

[1066]

Ok - so you have a co2 capsule in the but to provide the self cocking feature or a wind up spring working a ratchet system.?

[tacfoley]

Ok - so you have a co2 capsule in the but to provide the self cocking feature or a wind up spring working a ratchet system.?

The sole reason that we are allowed to have a Co2 method of driving a mechanism that advances a magazine, as in the case of the Steyr LP10 or similar, is that it is NOT a Section 1 firearm, but a sub-6ft lb airgun.

The 'Patriot' pistol or a similar firearm IS a Section 1 firearm.

The words 'self-contained' or 'built-in' added to 'method of loading' by implies a 'self-loading Section 1 firearm'.

The term 'flogging a dead horse' comes to mind here.

I'm done, and you can carry on without my worthless input.

[1066]

I'm fully in agreement Tac - the whole idea in a non-starter from every way you look at it.

[Solvo]

Thanks guys.

Tac I'm not intent on making something which is illegal - very much the opposite.
I have no intention of pursuing the design if it's not permissible under Section 1.

The only relevant section I can see in the act is the section 5 prohibitions.

(ab)any self-loading or pump-action rifled gun other than one which is chambered for .22 rim-fire cartridges;
(aba)any firearm which either has a barrel less than 30 centimetres in length or is less than 60 centimetres in length overall, other than an air weapon, a muzzle-loading gun or a firearm designed as signalling apparatus;


(2A)In this Act “self-loading” and “pump-action” in relation to any weapon mean respectively that it is designed or adapted (otherwise than as mentioned in section 5(1)(a)) so that it is automatically re-loaded or that it is so designed or adapted that it is re–loaded by the manual operation of the fore–end or forestock of the weapon.

(9)Any reference in this section to a muzzle-loading gun is a reference to a gun which is designed to be loaded at the muzzle end of the barrel or chamber with a loose charge and a separate ball (or other missile)

This still leaves the definition of 're-loading' open to debate though so does little to settle the indexing debate.
I might still play about with a design and plastic mock-up but I think based on the points made it'll sadly not see production

[harry mac]

Is the term "self loading" or "semi-automatic" specifically described anywhere in the act?
The technical description goes something like, "A weapon which, on each pull of the trigger, uses the recoiling components of the mechanism to eject the used cartridge case and chamber a new round. Each pull of the trigger firing only one round".
Has The Home Office "customised" the definition of self loading to suit their own needs?
Also bear in mind, as mentioned earlier by 1066, The Home Secretary has the power to ban any firearm he/she sees as "especially dangerous". This power was introduced by the same act that "banned" the ownership of conventional Sect 1 handguns, and was successfully used to ban lever release and MARS rifles. So. If you did manage to convince NABIS that you had indeed formulated a legal work around, all the Home Secretary has to do is label it "especially dangerous", and they get banned.
Don't poke the tiger.