How old are these pellets?

[45flint]

See these in the US and always wondered if they are as old as they look.

[WebleyWombler]

I would say 1930s but couldn't get much closer than that. Tell were popular from the very late 1920s and anything made post WWII that had an age to it would be marked 'Made in West Germany'/ Made in the GDR' or similar. They were evidently packaged for the English speaking world but by whom, I couldn't say.

[Garvin]

Presumably Grossman is meant to be Crosman?

[45flint]

Presumably Grossman is meant to be Crosman?

I was wondering that as well

[hyscore100]

I think I have some of these ,I will dig them out for a closer look.

[ccdjg]

This is what the pellets look like apparently, so as flat-heads are they more likely to be post-war? I am not sure when "wadcutter" pellets were first introduced.

[45flint]

This is what the pellets look like apparently, so as flat-heads are they more likely to be post-war? I am not sure when "wadcutter" pellets were first introduced.

It’s would make sense also since these seem to come up often for sale.

[Geezer]

It’s a great shame that while the history of air guns has been well-documented (increasingly so) for decades, the history of their calibres and ammunition has not been.

When, and by whom, exactly, did the first diabolo get introduced? Was it the Kynoch “Witton” or “Match” of 1905?

Why did BSA pick .177” and .22” for the LJ? Why in those exact measurements?

Did wadcutters exist for years as a pellet type, or were they invented in the 1950s for the new German-led sport of 10M match shooting? If so, by whom and when?

Why did Brits go for (nominal) 5.6mm .22”, and everyone else (nominal) 5.5mm?

[WebleyWombler]

It’s a great shame that while the history of air guns has been well-documented (increasingly so) for decades, the history of their calibres and ammunition has not been.


Did wadcutters exist for years as a pellet type, or were they invented in the 1950s for the new German-led sport of 10M match shooting? If so, by whom and when?

Not too sure about the whys and wherefores but I don't think the continentals had the same traditions of small game shooting as us and it seems to me that most of the diabolo pellets made for their consumption had much flatter fronts than our general use pellets. The Germans have had a target shooting history with air rifles stretching back to the 19th century but I think a lot of it used darts in the early days.

[edbear2]

Grr....Wrote a long post and we had a power cut so lost the lot!

Anyway, I said something about the USA importers re-branding UK and npellets, sometimes the tins would even be the same so maybe even printed in the UK, Stoeger Hornets (1939 Catalogue) wre German, and ABC / National Cartridge / Hyscore were U.K. made I recall. I would buy a tin online from the US and then open it and see Webley / Eley / Lanes pellets which were obviously the original contents if sealed etc.

I have seen more than one "Pappdosen" .(German for Paper container....add kugeln and you have a handy search term) which contained these early flatheads, all seemed to have the distinctive very small hollow at the back. Utendoerffer also did these card containers quite early on;

https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7607964699940/

I always, from the economy packaging (compared to Utendoerfers normal tins) thought they were a Depression era item, now whether that means 1930's or post war shortages of metal I could never pin down. The graphics always looked prewar to me, but I never could nail it down 100% date wise.

I suppose someone in Geramany will know, but tried various Grerman collecting forums with no luck as well.

ATB, Ed

[frakor]

It’s a great shame that while the history of air guns has been well-documented (increasingly so) for decades, the history of their calibres and ammunition has not been.

When, and by whom, exactly, did the first diabolo get introduced? Was it the Kynoch “Witton” or “Match” of 1905?

Why did BSA pick .177” and .22” for the LJ? Why in those exact measurements?

Did wadcutters exist for years as a pellet type, or were they invented in the 1950s for the new German-led sport of 10M match shooting? If so, by whom and when?

Why did Brits go for (nominal) 5.6mm .22”, and everyone else (nominal) 5.5mm?

From what I have found in a 1908 "AK" brochure from Germany there is no mention of a diabolo pellet all they used where pointed slugs.
However in a 1911 "August Stukenbrok" brochure they introduce a "NEW" air rifle made for shooting Diabolo pellets!





====================
Frank

[ccdjg]

Knowing that the leading expert on vintage airgun ammunition has to be John Atkins, I dug through past pellet articles of his in Airgunner Magazine,and in the December 2006 issue he mentions Lanes Bully Bullets. These are dated to 1906, and are not only one of the earliest mentions of waisted pellets, but they also have flat wadcutter head. It is interesting that when the waisted pellet was later accepted in Germany, the flat head type eventually became their norm, whereas in the UK, the flat head did not catch on, and waisted pellets became exclusively domed or pointed.



Frank's 1911 catalogue picture shows a domed head on the waisted pellet, and in my own searches I could only find German dome heads up to 1939 (catalogues seen from the years 1926, 1933 and 1934). The first definitive illustration of a flat head pellet I found was in a 1939 Akah catalogue, and these were made by Utendorfer. So it appears that the mystery pellets could have been pre-war, but only just.

[Garvin]

It’s a great shame that while the history of air guns has been well-documented (increasingly so) for decades, the history of their calibres and ammunition has not been.

When, and by whom, exactly, did the first diabolo get introduced? Was it the Kynoch “Witton” or “Match” of 1905?

Why did BSA pick .177” and .22” for the LJ? Why in those exact measurements?

Did wadcutters exist for years as a pellet type, or were they invented in the 1950s for the new German-led sport of 10M match shooting? If so, by whom and when?

Why did Brits go for (nominal) 5.6mm .22”, and everyone else (nominal) 5.5mm?

John Atkins has written a multi-part series of articles in Air Gunner on pellets and slugs. If you buy an online only AG sub you get digital access to them all. Not sure if he answered these exact questions though.

EDIT: see John's post above.

[Geezer]

Knowing that the leading expert on vintage airgun ammunition has to be John Atkins, I dug through past pellet articles of his in Airgunner Magazine,and in the December 2006 issue he mentions Lanes Bully Bullets. These are dated to 1906, and are not only one of the earliest mentions of waisted pellets, but they also have flat wadcutter head. It is interesting that when the waisted pellet was later accepted in Germany, the flat head type eventually became their norm, whereas in the UK, the flat head did not catch on, and waisted pellets became exclusively domed or pointed.



Frank's 1908 catalogue picture shows a domed head on the waisted pellet, and in my own searches I could only find German dome heads up to 1939 (catalogues seen from the years 1926, 1933 and 1934). The first definitive illustration of a flat head pellet I found was in a 1939 Akah catalogue, and these were made by Utendorfer. So it appears that the mystery pellets could have been pre-war, but only just.

Interesting, thanks.

Are those cats being shot with “bango bullets”, or some kind of monkey?

What were “Bango bullets”, anyway?

[edbear2]

Interesting, thanks.

Are those cats being shot with “bango bullets”, or some kind of monkey?

What were “Bango bullets”, anyway?

Bango's were Lanes explosive pellets, not sure what they used Fulminate of Mercury or some such pressure sensitive stuff I expect, we used to fiddlearound with red match heads and stuff as kids without much success.

ATB, Ed