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Thread: How old are these pellets?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by edbear2 View Post
    Bango's were Lanes explosive pellets, not sure what they used Fulminate of Mercury or some such pressure sensitive stuff I expect, we used to fiddlearound with red match heads and stuff as kids without much success.

    ATB, Ed
    I thought so.

    You can still get something similar on E Bore. I think from Russia. They are of course illegal.

    Despite the interesting and helpful comments on this thread, I still think that the origin of the diabolo in 1905-08 remains a bit of a mystery to me.

    We can hypothesise (with some certainty) that someone invented them, and that they proved well suited to the LJ/BSA and the Bonehill Anglo Sure-Shot. But were the rifles and the pellets invented separately, or was there some connection?

    Probably a happy coincidence. Just a pity we (I) can’t be sure.

  2. #17
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    On a slightly different note i got tall round papper pellet box called "the new kessler universal" they are hollow slugs i belive made in USA same as the Kessler air rifle. Cant find much info does anyone know roughly the period these were made, maybe Mr 45flint knows? I imagine these would have been ideal for bunny bashing with a high power rifle, unfortunately i cant attach a pic. Tx
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  3. #18
    ccdjg is offline Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    I thought so.

    Despite the interesting and helpful comments on this thread, I still think that the origin of the diabolo in 1905-08 remains a bit of a mystery to me.
    .
    Yes, and it still remains a mystery to everyone The origin of the most important development ever in airgun ammunition is still unknown. Despite a thorough study of catalogues, trademarks, patents and trade journal data, John Atkins could not pin the origin down, other than it was almost certainly in the UK.

    Given that pellet manufacturers of the period were quick to patent and publicise the weirdest of designs, most of which were a waste of time, it is hard to understand why the originator of the waisted pellet was so shy in coming forward.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccdjg View Post
    Yes, and it still remains a mystery to everyone The origin of the most important development ever in airgun ammunition is still unknown. Despite a thorough study of catalogues, trademarks, patents and trade journal data, John Atkins could not pin the origin down, other than it was almost certainly in the UK.

    Given that pellet manufacturers of the period were quick to patent and publicise the weirdest of designs, most of which were a waste of time, it is hard to understand why the originator of the waisted pellet was so shy in coming forward.
    Thanks, Prof. I’m glad it’s not just me!

  5. #20
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    Kessler Pellets

    Quote Originally Posted by BadPigeon View Post
    On a slightly different note i got tall round papper pellet box called "the new kessler universal" they are hollow slugs i belive made in USA same as the Kessler air rifle. Cant find much info does anyone know roughly the period these were made, maybe Mr 45flint knows? I imagine these would have been ideal for bunny bashing with a high power rifle, unfortunately i cant attach a pic. Tx
    Have attached a photo of what I believe is your blue Kessler pellet container. There are also other Kessler pellet containers. Kessler dated approximately 1948-1950. Hope this helps.




  6. #21
    edbear2 Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    I thought so.

    You can still get something similar on E Bore. I think from Russia. They are of course illegal.

    Despite the interesting and helpful comments on this thread, I still think that the origin of the diabolo in 1905-08 remains a bit of a mystery to me.

    We can hypothesise (with some certainty) that someone invented them, and that they proved well suited to the LJ/BSA and the Bonehill Anglo Sure-Shot. But were the rifles and the pellets invented separately, or was there some connection?

    Probably a happy coincidence. Just a pity we (I) can’t be sure.
    I would say they co-incided with the advent of rifled barrels, maybe it is a case, like so many things, of many people coming up with the same conclusions / ideas, and even if you find the person who "invented" them, you will never know if he nicked the idea or someone with less access to marketing beat him to it (like the telephone).

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/312284...7608030264100/

    ATB, Ed

  7. #22
    ccdjg is offline Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    Interesting, thanks.

    Are those cats being shot with “bango bullets”, or some kind of monkey?

    What were “Bango bullets”, anyway?
    The article by John Atkins in the latest (January 2021) issue of Airgunner gives another fascinating and detailed account of early pellets, which happens to cover these Bango pellets, and is a 'must' read for anyone with an interest in the history of airgun ammunition. The Bango's of course only explode on hitting a hard surface, so in the advert they are not actually being shot at the cats (yes, they are cats, not monkeys!).

  8. #23
    ccdjg is offline Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccdjg View Post
    Knowing that the leading expert on vintage airgun ammunition has to be John Atkins, I dug through past pellet articles of his in Airgunner Magazine,and in the December 2006 issue he mentions Lanes Bully Bullets. These are dated to 1906, and are not only one of the earliest mentions of waisted pellets, but they also have flat wadcutter head.
    I overlooked a later article by John Atkins in the July 2018 issue of Airgunner, in which he discusses this very aspect about the flat heads on Bully bullets. Actual examples of the Bully pellets are illustrated and the heads are not as flat as drawn in the 1906 advert, although they are much flatter than most pellets. In actual tests, the Bully pellets performed well as wad cutters. A fascinating read!

  9. #24
    ccdjg is offline Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post
    It’s a great shame that while the history of air guns has been well-documented (increasingly so) for decades, the history of their calibres and ammunition has not been.

    When, and by whom, exactly, did the first diabolo get introduced? Was it the Kynoch “Witton” or “Match” of 1905?

    Why did BSA pick .177” and .22” for the LJ? Why in those exact measurements?

    Did wadcutters exist for years as a pellet type, or were they invented in the 1950s for the new German-led sport of 10M match shooting? If so, by whom and when?

    Why did Brits go for (nominal) 5.6mm .22”, and everyone else (nominal) 5.5mm?

    As Danny said in post 13 above, John Atkins has written a multi-part series of articles in Air Gunner on pellets and slugs. The answers to most of these questions, or failing that, interesting discussions around, them, would be found in this series and in his other articles.

    These various articles give the most in depth analysis of the vintage airgun ammunition field you can find anywhere, and by subscribing to Airgunner online you can get downloads of all those that date back to 2009. The illustrations of old packets and tins are also superb and mouth watering.

    Apart from numerous references to specific vintage pellets in his general articles, the following articles have been dedicated to the pellets topic: Pellets from the Past: Part 1, July 2010. Part 2, Aug 2010. Part 3`Aug 2014. Part 4, Nov 2014. .Part 5, March 2015. Pre-World War 1 Air Pistols and Pellets July 2018’, and Catalogues and Cat Slugs, Jan 2021.

    I have suggested to John on occasion that a monograph by him devoted to vintage airgun pellets, even a simple compilation of his past articles, would be extremely well received and would sell well. However, he does not think that there would be that much interest unless air pistols and rifles pertinent to the pellets were also included, and as that would be too time consuming, he is not enamoured of the idea.

    It would be interesting to know how many people would consider buying such a book specialising in vintage ammunition only.

  10. #25
    ccdjg is offline Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geezer View Post

    When, and by whom, exactly, did the first diabolo get introduced? Was it the Kynoch “Witton” or “Match” of 1905?
    In the latest article by John Atkins (Airgunner, Jan 2021) he says:

    "Apart from true American size BB (.180) ball, small calibre ammunition for airguns at the turn of the last century was largely parallel-sided slugs, pointed or round nosed, made both solid and hollow, prior to the first appearance of the ‘modern’ waisted air rifle pellet, developed in 1904. Most likely it was introduced by E. Bowen and George Kynoch of Lion Works, Birmingham as the .177 Kynoch ‘Match’ followed immediately by their lighter weight Kynoch ‘Witton’. Shortly afterwards ‘Britannia’ pellets by C. G. Bonehill of The Belmont Works appeared in 1905 with his low-waisted pellet, developed to suit the Fred. Cox designed ‘Britannia’ model air rifle that Bonehill built."

    Commenting to me further on this, John says "Although I've said 'most likely’ - I believe this is perfectly correct. Of all the rival waisteds, there was nothing else around that was earlier, despite the 1930s claim by Kynoch Ltd., as to their ‘discovery of the ‘waisted’ principle' being much earlier in 1895. Maybe they did, and applied it unsuccessfully to bullets for firearms at that time. Why wait another 9 years before making a pellet of that shape in late 1904? There were plenty of rifled larger cal. a/guns around at that time to shoot it successfully!"

    "First waisted was, without much doubt, the Kynoch ‘Match’ - according to all the ‘Lectures to Young Gunmakers' and other contemporary mentions, pellet tests etc., I have now since studied. The patent does not appear to have been published for some reason. The patent people (you mentioned) who I offered to pay what it took to make a search never came back to me."


    So unless something totally unexpected turns up from the historical record, we can safely assume that 1904 was the date and Kynochs of Witton, Birmingham the originator. That kind of pleases me as I was born and raised only a mile or so from the Kynochs factory, and in fact I had relatives who worked there in the 1940's and 50's, long after it had become part of ICI.

  11. #26
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    I would be one of the first in line to buy such a publication on vintage air gun ammunition, it is truly a fascinating subject. Needless to say it would be the first of it's kind, you can put me down for Three copies. It would be like in 2008 when I bought 3 copies of ESAP, one for me, one for my Dad, and one to keep in mint condition. Believe me, my copy of ESAP has seen a lot of use, such an excellent publications by John Griffiths.....My thanks young man.

    Bruce Jr.

  12. #27
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    I too would be purchasing at least three copies if such a publication was available. Falling that how good would it be if we all took photos of vintage pellets we had that is pellets from different angles and the boxes. Perhaps leave out one side of the box so that they cant be reproduced and sign over the copy right to JohnA or someone else trusted. This way there would be a central pellet catalogue that can be used for identification, etc.. Just a thought or wishful thinking perhaps.
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