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Thread: Is spring piston tuning stagnant

  1. #1
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    Is spring piston tuning stagnant

    Some years back when I started tuning my springers, a few of us got our heads together,thanks mainly to the BBS and the Springer bash, sharing ideas and techniques and tuning seemed to come on leaps and bounds with new approaches/ developments happening fairly often (reduced cylinder , skirtless pistons, new ways of sealing etc )
    All I am seeing now seems to be old stuff rehashed ,ie buttoning gliding, shorter strokes or spring kits, most of which while being well engineered are mostly copying the venom work from the past.
    I am constantly changing modifying and testing variations of my tunes most of which doesn't improve things and gets binned .
    So has spring piston tuning reached its conclusion , or is there more to come ?

    Posted elsewhere.

  2. #2
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    I suppose there is an optimum set up and when this is found it cannot be improved upon.

    It is interesting to see the different approaches depending upon the type of mechanism in use.
    Repariere nicht, was nicht kaputtist.

  3. #3
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    Back in the 80s a good regular clean and polish and a little lube was sufficient enough but seems these days a tune seems to be putting a gun right from manufacturing, Loose bits and poorly finished along with dirty barrels etc is getting more popular these days, Is it tuning or putting right , Maybe a case of both.

  4. #4
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    Poor quality from new - basic tune much better -

    Tune Kit - better still -

    Venom / V mach - Glides - was there anything better with any degree of 'mass market' - ?


    How many people have shot a fully glided (and imo as a Venom V mach specific term - no longer available other than second hand) rifle - ?


    If people don't know what a springer 'can' shoot like - which is most younger shooters coming in now, where is the interest going to come from ?


    Spring gun tuning is not exactly 'dead' but waning / in decline, through ignorance/ lack of experience as much as anything is my current thought .


    The last two rifles I bought off here had been 'home tuned' - wow - one arrived doing 6.5 ftlbs with wrong spring, and barrel hacked with no crown, the other with pointlessly bent trigger parts copying guy off u tube
    Both went to a well known airgun smith (one of the few) to be put right including decent quality piston seals and are now nice to shoot ....
    Looking for TO-6 Trigger unit unmessed with or T0-6 kit for 34

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickG View Post
    Some years back when I started tuning my springers, a few of us got our heads together,thanks mainly to the BBS and the Springer bash, sharing ideas and techniques and tuning seemed to come on leaps and bounds with new approaches/ developments happening fairly often (reduced cylinder , skirtless pistons, new ways of sealing etc )
    All I am seeing now seems to be old stuff rehashed ,ie buttoning gliding, shorter strokes or spring kits, most of which while being well engineered are mostly copying the venom work from the past.
    I am constantly changing modifying and testing variations of my tunes most of which doesn't improve things and gets binned .
    So has spring piston tuning reached its conclusion , or is there more to come ?

    Posted elsewhere.
    Yourself and a couple of others have taken springer tuning to another level, which is now into a level of redesign / remanufacturing that's beyond the ability of most.
    The rest of us will continue to strive to get the best out of available platforms, by the simpler means available.

    Whether springer tuning has stagnated, is possibly a question for the very small group, that have made the major advancements in the least few years.
    The rotating piston underlever rifles, seem to have had more developments, with the reduced piston diameter tuning, but break barrel rifles do seem to have been left behind, guessing down to the complcations that aren't there with underlevers.
    How about a 22mm piston for a 95?
    B.A.S.C. member

  6. #6
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    yes mate, I think we've cracked it

    Future developments for me might be around
    - TP valving (no suck back)
    - floating inertia or other anti-bounce type devices
    - funky new piston seals (e.g. quad )

    But I think the basics of cylinder diamter, stroke, weight TP are pretty much sorted now...
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  7. #7
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    Where you had lathes, the next generation of tuners will be using CNC, printers, and computer modelling.

    Best effort then for springers its pretty well got there. I thought the Park Rifles had got there too! I don't think enough has been done with gas ram power plants either, but who is going to work on that more?
    Frankly, without a new concept there isn't much more to be done. Though I do think the main manufacturers could get all the advances found done well into one box/rifle. Fine tune what they provide.

    Please, some one prove me wrong and come up with something "perfect".

  8. #8
    flyingfish's Avatar
    flyingfish is offline I may only have 5 but I have the best 5
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    Hmm define perfect.
    I think the big advances will be in materials
    Maybe composite cylinders and pistons.
    I think the tuning of existing models is as good as it needs to be.
    Pete

  9. #9
    JerryD is offline Will only use cherry lipbalm
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfish View Post
    Hmm define perfect.
    I think the big advances will be in materials
    Maybe composite cylinders and pistons.
    I think the tuning of existing models is as good as it needs to be.
    That would be interesting: carbon fibre or kevlar in place of steel, titanium or aluminium.

    If the objective of springer tuning is the dampening of the recoil motion, then the shift to a cost-effective Whiscombe-style design would be a great thing to see. The argument would be that PCPs render this unnecessary, but every PCP I'm aware of is reliant on a source of hpa. The beauty of springers is that they are self-contained.


    .
    Jerry

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    Yourself and a couple of others have taken springer tuning to another level, which is now into a level of redesign / remanufacturing that's beyond the ability of most.
    The rest of us will continue to strive to get the best out of available platforms, by the simpler means available.

    Whether springer tuning has stagnated, is possibly a question for the very small group, that have made the major advancements in the least few years.
    The rotating piston underlever rifles, seem to have had more developments, with the reduced piston diameter tuning, but break barrel rifles do seem to have been left behind, guessing down to the complcations that aren't there with underlevers.
    How about a 22mm piston for a 95?
    Have you been reading my mail , I have a 24 mm 95 in progress as we speak.��

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    yes mate, I think we've cracked it

    Future developments for me might be around
    - TP valving (no suck back)
    - floating inertia or other anti-bounce type devices
    - funky new piston seals (e.g. quad )

    But I think the basics of cylinder diamter, stroke, weight TP are pretty much sorted now...
    Mind reader
    https://photos.app.goo.gl/tyGbmabki1GYhZgq8

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfish View Post
    Hmm define perfect.
    I think the big advances will be in materials
    Maybe composite cylinders and pistons.
    I think the tuning of existing models is as good as it needs to be.
    I was being tongue in cheek.

    On materials then how about ceramic coatings to get perfect slide? I there is a little to go yet, but that might require more equipment than found in an enthusiasts garage?? I do think enthusiast garages have all done us proud though. Maybe the next generation will have that kit to go further still in their garages?!!!

  13. #13
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    I think single piston springer tuning has peaked.
    Tightening tolerances and using the best materials for the job is the best and obvious way to register a marked improvement over factory standard jobs.
    It's when the dynamics, tp, stroke, piston weight etc started to be fettled that it moved up a couple of notches, particularly when one throws a maximum power that must not be exceeded into the mix.
    Perhaps single piston springers were the go to gun since they were more " expendable" than say a Park, Whiscombe or Giss Diana.
    In my day, everyone was fettling Minis and MK1 Escorts because they were affordable and easily fixed if things did not work out, which was not the case with car's that were already fettled from new.
    I doubt if the twin piston airguns which are still around can be dynamically improved further except perhaps take advantage of today's CNC machine tools to reduce slop and production variables.

  14. #14
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    I think 'tuning' has never been so popular, what with all the kits around and advice in the media.
    The Jim articles in AGW could well stimulate more products: How about bespoke barrel weights that can be slid up and down the barrel / underlever to optimise harmonics? Current solutions seem to rely on strapping wheel balance weights with gaffa tape etc. Surely a more aesthetically pleasing item would attract a (small?) market.
    I suspect there are more gizmos to tempt the tuner but it's coffee time.
    Cheers, Phil

  15. #15
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    Now that my TX 200 .177 is run in, i don't think that you could make it any better...bog std action. .bang on power from new.
    Smooth and stunningly accurate out to 50yds off bags.
    As good as most Pcp's and certainly a match for my custom CZ200T and HFT 500 which are probably the most accurate guns i own, or ever owned..so i use them all for
    benchrest.
    Not tuned ,or even been in it.
    It has only had the trigger adjusted and dropped in a CS1000 stock.
    A real nice gun indeed...very happy with it.
    Last edited by MrGreengrass; 23-09-2021 at 07:08 PM.
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