Is spring piston tuning stagnant

[HW777]

One question I'd like to hear peoples views on.

Is it a good idea to fit a thin slip wash behind the rear spring guide, so the guide can rotate ?

I do this but don't see a lot of other people mentioning this in their threads when they home tune their rifles.

As to spring design, it could be improved upon as a single unit, without the need for any spring guides.

[u.k.neil]

I think 'tuning' has never been so popular, what with all the kits around and advice in the media.
The Jim articles in AGW could well stimulate more products: How about bespoke barrel weights that can be slid up and down the barrel / underlever to optimise harmonics? Current solutions seem to rely on strapping wheel balance weights with gaffa tape etc. Surely a more aesthetically pleasing item would attract a (small?) market.
I suspect there are more gizmos to tempt the tuner but it's coffee time.
Cheers, Phil

Hi Phil, in my time I have made a few "barrel tuners" for the bench rest brigade. This comprises of a barrel sleeve which can be positioned anywhere along the barrel and fixed with grub screws, the sleeve has an external very fine thread about 30 mm long and then a tuning ring with a matching internal thread that can be micro adjusted along the thread, again fixed with a grub screw. To set it up the shooter shoots groups of three shots until the minimum "clover leaf" pattern is achieved. I am told by the bench rest lads that this was successful and almost eliminated barrel vibration.


Neil

[robs5230]

Have you been reading my mail , I have a 24 mm 95 in progress as we speak.��

Interested to se how that goes Nick.

[Phil Russell]

Hi Phil, in my time I have made a few "barrel tuners" for the bench rest brigade. This comprises of a barrel sleeve which can be positioned anywhere along the barrel and fixed with grub screws, the sleeve has an external very fine thread about 30 mm long and then a tuning ring with a matching internal thread that can be micro adjusted along the thread, again fixed with a grub screw. To set it up the shooter shoots groups of three shots until the minimum "clover leaf" pattern is achieved. I am told by the bench rest lads that this was successful and almost eliminated barrel vibration.


Neil

Hi Neil ... I should have guessed, shouldn't I?
You state 'bench rest'.... I wonder if the FT or even HFT brigades were interested. I note from AG the dear Mr Chillingworth cobbled together wheel weights and tape to optimise his TX.
Cheers, Phil

[Geezer]

Yes, I think you and various others have basically cracked it as far as the power plant. And a lot was already cracked by the late 80s.

I personally (though far from mechanically minded) find it hard to imagine what major improvements could now be invented.

[Garry]

How about a valve which holds back the air until the piston has compressed it to an optimum pressure, or does this already happen with the resistance of the pellet?
Would such a valve close too soon once the pressure has started to be released?
Would it have any benefit anyway?

[TonyL]

Nothing much to add, really, as many good points have been raised already.

In terms of larger scale commercial involvement, if there were to be any further advancements, I feel they would be the result of computer design (as the Beeman R1/HW80 and modern day LGV reportedly were?). But I fear that in these days of PCP dominance in sales at the top-end of the market that there would be little appetite for the investment involved. But I'd love to see this happen from a purely personal view.

I have suggested the launch of a range of adaptable, effective and aesthetically pleasing barrel weights to an enterprising airgun engineer. Watch this space.

Again, as has been said, a broad "blueprint" of the ideal single piston 12ft.lbs platform has pretty much been agreed on now and further advancements will be mainly "tweaks" involving seal materials and finishing of compression components.

[Black Beard]

One question I'd like to hear peoples views on.

Is it a good idea to fit a thin slip wash behind the rear spring guide, so the guide can rotate ?

I do this but don't see a lot of other people mentioning this in their threads when they home tune their rifles.

As to spring design, it could be improved upon as a single unit, without the need for any spring guides.

Probably. But make sure it is a good fit to the cylinder so it can't move about and has a bigger hole for any central piston rod than the guide (so it doesn't catch).

[TonyL]

Some years back when I started tuning my springers, a few of us got our heads together,thanks mainly to the BBS and the Springer bash, sharing ideas and techniques and tuning seemed to come on leaps and bounds with new approaches/ developments happening fairly often (reduced cylinder , skirtless pistons, new ways of sealing etc )
All I am seeing now seems to be old stuff rehashed ,ie buttoning gliding, shorter strokes or spring kits, most of which while being well engineered are mostly copying the venom work from the past.
I am constantly changing modifying and testing variations of my tunes most of which doesn't improve things and gets binned .
So has spring piston tuning reached its conclusion , or is there more to come ?

Posted elsewhere.

. Ken believed that we have already reached a point of diminishing returns in the 80s. ]

Yep, I think that, with the introduction of the 25mm HW77 and the tweaks thereafter, we were pretty much there.

These days, I feel that a greater understanding of the characteristics of the spring itself, and its relationship with all the other components to balance the action, even amongst many home tinkerers / shed tuners has had a positive effect.

And maybe also worthy of mention is the newer breed of low release pressure pellets, promoting efficiency and more pleasant firing sequences in a balanced action. The "valving" effect above?

[TonyL]

Have you been reading my mail , I have a 24 mm 95 in progress as we speak.��

Yummy, yummy. Can't wait to see this!: In a conversation with Bigtoe many years ago I'd got him enthused over doing a 23mm one. Can't remember if he did one or not?

Will yours be coming to The Bash, Nick?

[TonyL]

One question I'd like to hear peoples views on.

Is it a good idea to fit a thin slip wash behind the rear spring guide, so the guide can rotate ?

I do this but don't see a lot of other people mentioning this in their threads when they home tune their rifles.

.

Not sure. But I guess that many like to have one between the guide and spring and top hat and spring and top hat and piston, as I do.

[HW777]

Not sure. But I guess that many like to have one between the guide and spring and top hat and spring and top hat and piston, as I do.

My theory Tony, on a fixed guide in the block the spring has to spin on the guide, where as if the whole spring guide rotates less wear.

[NickG]

Probably not tony as it's not my gun ☹️re the slip washer very few guides are fixed in the trigger block so rotate anyway , at the piston end a top hat does the same job.

[HW777]

Probably not tony as it's not my gun ☹️re the slip washer very few guides are fixed in the trigger block so rotate anyway , at the piston end a top hat does the same job.

I know it would only be classed as bushes or as we call them slip washers but one in front of top hat and behind the spring guide seems logical, I use penny washers for the rear guide, they come in a 1.5mm thick so will not work with thick based spring guides unless the base is reduced or the washer.

[gsxrman]

I dont think the word to use is stagnant but rather optimised.
Just like a lot of aged technology i.e. the combustion engine, we are pretty much there.
I think good engineers could defo improve a spring powered rifle though but maybe not the now sorted power plant.
What about re developing the TX200SR or the Park opposing piston system.
They were heavy and bulky designs but could be made lighter and sleaker.
Also, the gas ram design was very innovative, whether people liked them or not, they never changed much at all but could springless springer be the new kiddy.
Ill keep thinking whilst driving the electric car integrated with the 13th gen iPhone and Alexa!!!