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  1. #1
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    Quote Originally Posted by edbear2 View Post
    Lincoln Jeffries springs to mind, although he supposedly "improved" aspects of the foreign guns he sold and stamped up before he came up with his tap loading patent. I can't recall in which book it is I read about in now, but the subject of British gunsmiths importing and stamping up foreign guns was a huge bone of contention way back for the Birmingham and London makers.

    ATB, Ed
    HI Ed,

    Have we seen a LJ marked Gem pattern in the wild?...I honestly can't remember!...I seem to remember that LJ did put his moniker on some of the Militas of the day though...

    Quote Originally Posted by ccdjg View Post
    The company K.B Paris had a range of Gem type airguns around 1900. I am pretty sure that they made these themselves, as all their other guns (air pistols and toy guns) were made by them, and in fact it is stated that their specific intent was to provide a domestic range of airguns to compete with foreign imports.

    Hi John,

    Thank you, I had not heard of K.B.Paris but do seem to remember another French name...'Coire''?...or something like that?...ring any bells with you or anyone else? (or is it coconut husk! )

    Have any actual examples of a K.B. Paris airgun or Gem pattern showed up anywhere?...I wonder if that advertising spiel is just that - spiel?...and, given that half of Belgium spoke French, whether it is a re-branded Belgian Marck Gem pattern or similar German type?...
    blah blah

  2. #2
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    A somewhat bold statement it may be but here goes...I think most* of the European Gem patterns were made by one of three manufacturers - Eisenwerk Gaggenau, Langanhan or Jean Marck.

    I seem to remember some Bergman marked Gem patterns too (were these likely to have been made by EG though?)

    ....and the mysterious Harpoon trademark...was that something to do with Bergman too?

    MGR/Diana Gems bare an uncanny resemblance to LZ/FLZ Gems...both Diana 3L types (T-bar and dolls head) and Diana 6 share so many similarities with the Langanhan Gem patterns in there overall shape and design...

    Sorry, my knowledge on this subject is so random and scattered that it is difficult to make sense of it, I rarely write anything down always relying on my memory...and have forgotten lots in the few short years I have been away...I wonder if this info is still relevant?



    *obviously not all!
    blah blah

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCL_dave View Post
    A somewhat bold statement it may be but here goes...I think most* of the European Gem patterns were made by one of three manufacturers - Eisenwerk Gaggenau, Langanhan or Jean Marck.

    I seem to remember some Bergman marked Gem patterns too (were these likely to have been made by EG though?)

    ....and the mysterious Harpoon trademark...was that something to do with Bergman too?

    MGR/Diana Gems bare an uncanny resemblance to LZ/FLZ Gems...both Diana 3L types (T-bar and dolls head) and Diana 6 share so many similarities with the Langanhan Gem patterns in there overall shape and design...

    Sorry, my knowledge on this subject is so random and scattered that it is difficult to make sense of it, I rarely write anything down always relying on my memory...and have forgotten lots in the few short years I have been away...I wonder if this info is still relevant?



    *obviously not all!
    I tend to agree with the above.
    There are a few German sites about Eisenwerke Gaggenau and it is interesting to notice the change in the name of the factory:


    1873 Michael Flürscheim und Franz Korwan kaufen am 1. Februar das Eisenwerk von Ludwig Klehe

    Firmenname: „Korwan und Flürscheim Eisenwerke Gaggenau bei Rastatt“ (vormals Louis Görger)


    Do you remeber where the Diana (Mayer und Grammelspacher) factory was located? in Rastatt!
    It seems very likely MGR bought the forged/cast parts from EG in rough form to create their own GEM?
    A few years later the EG factory got a new name:

    1880 Theodor Bergmann, ein Herdfabrikant aus Konstanz, tritt in die Firma ein.

    Emailierwerk, Stanzerei, Vernickelungsanstalt, Buchdruckerei, Schreinerei und Kunstgießerei werden eingerichtet. Neues Produkt: Badenia-Fahrräder

    150 Mitarbeiter

    1884 Bergmann wird Teilhaber. Firmenname: „Eisenwerke Gaggenau, Flürscheim und Bergmann


    So there is the connection with the Bergmann marked GEM's.

    The Jean Marck GEM's are different in construction and (in my opinion) made by a Belgium? factory.

    ================
    Frank

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    I have always thought the gem pattern was of foreign make due to its use of defintitely metric sized bits. Just guesswork but could the definitely way oversized .177" rifled barrels be as a result of them starting life as .177" smoothbores. L&J used to do the same with Militas and get them rifled in the trade in Brum as did others. There was little or no distinction between gunmakers and retailers.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenwayjames View Post
    I have always thought the gem pattern was of foreign make due to its use of defintitely metric sized bits. Just guesswork but could the definitely way oversized .177" rifled barrels be as a result of them starting life as .177" smoothbores. L&J used to do the same with Militas and get them rifled in the trade in Brum as did others. There was little or no distinction between gunmakers and retailers.
    Hi Greenwayjames,

    Can't remember where I read it but I think the possibility that the earliest/first model Brits were made abroad has been raised before...as you say, there does seem to be a few pointers to indicate that it is a distinct possibility anyway
    blah blah

  6. #6
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    Pah...why do I care who actually made a Gem pattern air gun, I don't even own a Gem pattern anymore!

    (I do have half a Quacker and a bit of an EG though...trying to figure out which one came to me first is a proving to be a bit of a bugger...do you see what I did there? ...)
    blah blah

  7. #7
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    You used to have a fantastic collection of Gem's,Dave why may I ask did you move them all along?

    Cheers,
    Mark.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by frakor View Post
    I tend to agree with the above.
    There are a few German sites about Eisenwerke Gaggenau and it is interesting to notice the change in the name of the factory:


    1873 Michael Flürscheim und Franz Korwan kaufen am 1. Februar das Eisenwerk von Ludwig Klehe

    Firmenname: „Korwan und Flürscheim Eisenwerke Gaggenau bei Rastatt“ (vormals Louis Görger)


    Do you remeber where the Diana (Mayer und Grammelspacher) factory was located? in Rastatt!
    It seems very likely MGR bought the forged/cast parts from EG in rough form to create their own GEM?
    A few years later the EG factory got a new name:

    1880 Theodor Bergmann, ein Herdfabrikant aus Konstanz, tritt in die Firma ein.

    Emailierwerk, Stanzerei, Vernickelungsanstalt, Buchdruckerei, Schreinerei und Kunstgießerei werden eingerichtet. Neues Produkt: Badenia-Fahrräder

    150 Mitarbeiter

    1884 Bergmann wird Teilhaber. Firmenname: „Eisenwerke Gaggenau, Flürscheim und Bergmann


    So there is the connection with the Bergmann marked GEM's.

    The Jean Marck GEM's are different in construction and (in my opinion) made by a Belgium? factory.

    ================
    Frank
    Hi Frank

    Again, very interesting, just been reading about the connections between Oscar will, Diana/MGR and Langenhahn too... (I always spell his name wrong!...argh!...)

    The Jean Marck guns were made in their own factory in the gun quarter of Liege, Belgium.
    blah blah

  9. #9
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    .and the mysterious Harpoon trademark...was that something to do with Bergman too?

    Quote Originally Posted by DCL_dave View Post
    A somewhat bold statement it may be but here goes...I think most* of the European Gem patterns were made by one of three manufacturers - Eisenwerk Gaggenau, Langanhan or Jean Marck.

    I seem to remember some Bergman marked Gem patterns too (were these likely to have been made by EG though?)

    ....and the mysterious Harpoon trademark...was that something to do with Bergman too?

    MGR/Diana Gems bare an uncanny resemblance to LZ/FLZ Gems...both Diana 3L types (T-bar and dolls head) and Diana 6 share so many similarities with the Langanhan Gem patterns in there overall shape and design...

    Sorry, my knowledge on this subject is so random and scattered that it is difficult to make sense of it, I rarely write anything down always relying on my memory...and have forgotten lots in the few short years I have been away...I wonder if this info is still relevant?



    *obviously not all!


    I'm pretty sure that the Harpoon stamping was simply the trademark used by the U.K. retailer/jobber "Osborne"

    LarryH

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrto View Post
    Sorry for the loss of your friend,
    Yes,a big collection is a responsibility and can be very time consuming.Where I am a number of years ago we lost a great air gun range and there has not really been anything nearly as good or as convenient locally since, for me at least, and selling off much of my collection,too is something I regularly mull over...

    ATB.
    Hi Mark

    Thank you for your kind words. Re. the collection, I had around 50 Gem patterns and i learned a lot from them, they were fun to own and shoot (I always took a Gem or two to the club) and very frustrating to research...many is the night spent chasing half chance ideas down blind alleys to come to no conclusions and be none the wiser!

    Quote Originally Posted by leh22 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that the Harpoon stamping was simply the trademark used by the U.K. retailer/jobber "Osborne"

    LarryH
    Thank you so much, Larry...that mark has vexed me for years!

    So, another retailer then...and the list gets shorter
    blah blah

  11. #11
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    Dave's Gem collection in its heyday:



    1) Unknown model, possibly by Langenhan (FLZ)
    2) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No 14
    3) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No 14
    4) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No 17
    5) Jean Marck No 3 with target sights (long hooked spur version )
    6) Jean Marck No 3 (long hooked spur version )
    7) Jean Marck No 3 (short hooked spur version )
    8) Jean Marck No 3 (short hooked spur version )
    9) Jean Marck No 2 Gallery model with target sights (long hooked spur version )
    10) Jean Marck No 2 with target sights (long hooked spur version )
    11) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No20
    12) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No20
    13) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No13
    14) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No13
    15) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No15
    16) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No16
    17) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No14
    18) FLZ/Diana No3L (T-bar)
    19) FLZ/Diana No3L (T-bar)
    20) FLZ/Diana No 6
    21) FLZ/Diana No3L (T-bar)
    22) FLZ/Diana No3L (dollshead)
    23) FLZ/Diana No3L (dollshead)
    24) FLZ Composite type
    25) FLZ Composite type
    26) FLZ Composite type
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    Dave's Gem collection in its heyday:



    1) Unknown model, possibly by Langenhan (FLZ)
    2) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No 14
    3) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No 14
    4) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No 17
    5) Jean Marck No 3 with target sights (long hooked spur version )
    6) Jean Marck No 3 (long hooked spur version )
    7) Jean Marck No 3 (short hooked spur version )
    8) Jean Marck No 3 (short hooked spur version )
    9) Jean Marck No 2 Gallery model with target sights (long hooked spur version )
    10) Jean Marck No 2 with target sights (long hooked spur version )
    11) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No20
    12) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No20
    13) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No13
    14) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No13
    15) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No15
    16) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No16
    17) Eisenwerke Gaggenau No14
    18) FLZ/Diana No3L (T-bar)
    19) FLZ/Diana No3L (T-bar)
    20) FLZ/Diana No 6
    21) FLZ/Diana No3L (T-bar)
    22) FLZ/Diana No3L (dollshead)
    23) FLZ/Diana No3L (dollshead)
    24) FLZ Composite type
    25) FLZ Composite type
    26) FLZ Composite type

    Thanks, Danny

    I remember that day...I had planned to take a load of pics but, having just got them outside and set up for that shot...the weather turned and I just about got a few shots before having to quickly carry them all back inside before the heavens opened.
    blah blah

  13. #13
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    That collection of logs is almost as impressive, Dave.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  14. #14
    edbear2 Guest
    HI Ed,

    Have we seen a LJ marked Gem pattern in the wild?...I honestly can't remember!...I seem to remember that LJ did put his moniker on some of the Militas of the day though...



    Hi Dave, I was alluding to / answering Garvin's comment about British makers stamping foreign guns, and was off thread as obviously Lincoln did the Militias as you say, good job I didn't waffle on about Ansonias and others as I was going to !

    ATB, Ed

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by edbear2 View Post

    Hi Dave, I was alluding to / answering Garvin's comment about British makers stamping foreign guns, and was off thread as obviously Lincoln did the Militias as you say, good job I didn't waffle on about Ansonias and others as I was going to !

    ATB, Ed
    Hi Ed,

    Ah...now I see it!
    blah blah

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