Softer 99 spring

[TonyL]

Oops. It's looking like our Tom will now be wishing that he had fitted the lower power kit and been a little less liberal on the application of the grease.. I did think the face of the seal odd, though, without the thin lip.......

https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2021/12/hw-50s-part-8/

[TonyL]

P.S..Although some of those previous posts may hint at a spot of "Tom bashing", they're intended as nothing of the sort. I enjoy his blog. It's a wealth of information. Often very good. Sometimes not quite 100% accurate. You can't deny his passion for all things airgun and, with references to a lot of these projects, he could quite easily skip all what happens on the way and just detail the final "tune", but he's open and honest and shows warts and all and mistakes he might make and what he learns on the way. Keep them coming, Tom.

[Shed tuner]

Looks like tests are underway, Jon.. The only thing is, to my mind, if it's the same spring but with extra coils and IF IT HAS THE SAME PITCH (?), maybe not. If the normal 10 has to be shortened in a .22 one would have thought that even the normal 10 might be a little too long in the .177 and may also require a little shortening? So I'm guessing there'd be nothing to gain from those extra coils unless there are other differences?

I'd assumed from the name it was identical (inc the pitch) to the #10, but longer... if anyone can let us know

BTW It's not really that similar to the std TX200 Mk3 spring which is 2.9mm wire - the tital #10/#10+ is 3.1 Still handy / not what you'd call stiff, but 3.0mm is a lot softer...

[TonyL]

Cheers JB.

I'd love to have enough time to experiment with the TX III spring in a few other guns.

[evert]

....but he's open and honest and shows warts and all and mistakes he might make and what he learns on the way....

Sorry, but hes been too long in the business to be excused when he fills a gun with grease and tries to shoot it out.
What he is doing is wrecking the spring and perhaps other parts too.

I SOMETIMES get a COUPLE diesel shots after assembling a spring gun- because I have LEARNED from previous mistakes.
When you continue doing the same mistake over and over, you are NOT learning....

[TonyL]

Mmm....yes, er, it wasn't that long ago that he was force feeding that Tune In A Tube stuff in with a grease gun. Point accepted!

[brk1]

I certainly don't think he's done the Vortek PG4 kit any favours , the 99s and hw50s supposedy being the best standard form for a Sub 12 air rifle, no tuning down needed to make safe figures , yet at best he seems to be getting 12.55 fpe, where as the gun in standard guise had a better setting and better consistency , I realise too much grease but 1256 fps is a little bit over the top, no good saying it will settle in as I don't think the think it was settled in when in standard form either.

I'm afraid testing has had to take a back burner ,I've knocked a nerve in my back and not even standing upright at he moment, much less trying to pull springs about and cocking levers, but my .177 HW99s had a shortened Titan no.10 in it from a previous purchase , they had got it set to about 10.5 with Express in there .177, in my set up it made 10.6-7 fpe so not far out all between two different 99s, only problem my saved up stash of pellets are mostly 8.44 Exacts , I don't have a large supply of Express, heavier pellets are not really making 10 in the same gun. I basically bought 2 x Titan No.10+ to go in my 97's, thats what Knibbs had advertised them as being suitable for, my TX being so soft , I know it has a bigger stroke and a 97 is never likely to give that soft a shot/cocking cycle , but I'm in favour of getting them as soft as possible so I can try and stop the old tennis elbow kicking in.

All the No.10's I have ever bought have never been the advertised 3.1mm guage, when my order came through, I'd bought 2 x No.10 + and one standard No.10. Measuring the guage of the new 10+ springs they were all under the 3.1mm gauge , the same as all the other No.10's I've ever had , The standard No.10 measures over 3.00mm , I had nice fitting guides made for all of them by shauny. MY idea was to fit the untouched full length No.10 straight into the .177 without changing the spring at all, but that new 3.00mm+ Titan No.10 is the softest one I've ever come across , at full untouched length without it settling down , it's now only making 10.4 with the Express and right under 10 with the other selection of pellets . Not what I'd hoped for , to take out a slightly underpowered cut No10 to replace with a full sized No.10 that hasn't shrunk yet and taken its set but is at less power already .I certainly don't expect a No10 to shrink and raise power. From what I've read a standard No.10 untouched is nearly the maximum amount you could get inside 99s without it getting coil bound . I didn't want the risk of changing a 10+ to try and gain that little bit extra power I was hoping for . That full No.10 inside that 99s was the easiest cocking gun I've by far. there afen't many .177 99s you can cock with little effort with your little finger, in .22 yes, just search out shaunys video on youtube, with the .177 usually needing just that little bit more umph to make powwr , it needs just that little bit more spring.

These are the figures Welsh willy got in a .22 99S , why he used a 10+ in a .22 when a standard no10 is enough for a that calibre 99s nobody knows , but his figures are pretty damned amazing, especialy compared to what the PG4 kit came out at in the HW50 test on pyramid air.

Welsh willy said

"The springs arrived and I quickly made up a WW kit for a HW99 in.22 cal, The spring was a touch long so I cut of a few coils, it does have a little extra preload when fitted but was easy enough to fit by hand.
The cocking effort was a touch lighter and the recoil was virtually non existent.

Onto the CHRONY, first few shots were a wee bit hot but soon settled down to a very very consistent 11.59 ftlbs with RWS Superdomes. Over a 15 shot string the rifle was at an ave of 600.33fps and a shot to shot difference of 1.73 fps
I printed out the readings on my Chrony printer and the results were as follows

RWS Hobby 662 fps = 11.58 ft lbs / fps diff 3.74 fps over 15 shots
JSB Express 592 fps = 11.16 ft lbs / fps diff 2.44 fps over 15 shots
JSB Jumbo 560 fps = 11.06 ft lbs / fps diff 1.73 fps over 15 shots "

But then he is a proper gunsmith, not someone just having a try with hw50s with a new untried system. Horses for courses as they say, I'm all in favour of people all being able to set up their own airguns and understand how they work and keep then serviced and legally maintained, if they want them properly tuned then thats why gunsmiths are what they are, Its not exactly a put it in a drill and fit piston rings to an HW piston and lighten it, thats a skilfull part you pay them to do, I can get my .22 to do a 3 fps spread, best I can a .177 down to so far is 7 fps spread, then only with its favourite pellets

[TonyL]

Excellent, very informative post; thank you.

I do hope you're feeling much better very soon.

[brk1]

Like WWillys results, (I don't have any .22 Hobbys), but Superdome do seem to have a strange performance in several types of guns , I can get set my .22 at just over 11.1-2 with the Exacts and RWS Superfields, same grn weight but the SField are slightly higher powered for the same weight pellets , so design / lead mix must slightly change things , the lighter Express actually made less power , the RS being lighter still made the least amount of power, yet trying the Superdomes I had to decrease the power a bit to keep it from being too warm , some of them would spike at over 12 every now and then , so I had to drop total energy to keep the Superdomes within the same field as the rest of them, but the Superdomes are a mid weight pellet, they defy the lighter make more in springers rule and heavier makes more in PCPs . the original settings of the spring just like WWillys settings , Superdomes seem to be able to add 0.5 +- fpe to an already set spring, different springs can produce different results , I can't remember what spring I had in it once , all the pellets used gave wider performance figure across the types and the Superdomes were below 11 , but the Titan No.10 seems to follow the same pattern of letting the Superdomes shoot with that extra umph that you don't want.

I've tried and spoilt a few No.10s trying to cure that Superdome performance but slightly altering them just made eveythng else drop, at one time every pellet fitted into a small range between 10.7 and 11.2 and very consistent , but the superdomes would spike at over 11.8 and normally be at least 11.6 , but 11.8 is too near trouble in my eyes .

When I'm peforming better again , perhaps I can remove the piston sleeve and see just how tight to being coil bound a full No.10 is, but then again If I got sent one of the slightly thinner guage No.10's I have normally been sent then I'll probably get different figures all over again. I always strive to get springs cut to exactly where I want them rather than needing to add preload washers , being sent that extra soft version No.10 probably wouldn't allow me the use of many power washers anyway before it was coil bound , I'll have to wait until I come across another thinner guage wire No.10 , then try it again, I do have a few reduced length No.10s which are mainly suitable for .22 versions or even in my TX, but I'm still after that softer cocking .177 spring that this thread started off trying to find , no two springs seem to be the same , in my TX200 kits the No.10 spring in the shortstroke piston kit is actually shorter than the standard piston kit, often you need a bit of extra spring to make up for the loss of volume the short sroke kit produces , not in my case

[TonyL]

Thank you once again for that very detailed information. I'm on a quick break at work, so can't reply so comprehensively.

Yes, different tunes and springs can sometimes turn that old belief where lighter pellets deliver more energy than heavier ones on its head and size, mix and construction of the skirt definitely play their part. The Superdome findings do stand out as seeming quite unusual, though......your gun patently loves them!

Do try the Hobby as they often deliver the highest readings in a fair few of mine.

And I do hope you're much better in super-quick time.

[robs5230]

Like WWillys results, (I don't have any .22 Hobbys), but Superdome do seem to have a strange performance in several types of guns , I can get set my .22 at just over 11.1-2 with the Exacts and RWS Superfields, same grn weight but the SField are slightly higher powered for the same weight pellets , so design / lead mix must slightly change things , the lighter Express actually made less power , the RS being lighter still made the least amount of power, yet trying the Superdomes I had to decrease the power a bit to keep it from being too warm , some of them would spike at over 12 every now and then , so I had to drop total energy to keep the Superdomes within the same field as the rest of them, but the Superdomes are a mid weight pellet, they defy the lighter make more in springers rule and heavier makes more in PCPs . the original settings of the spring just like WWillys settings , Superdomes seem to be able to add 0.5 +- fpe to an already set spring, different springs can produce different results , I can't remember what spring I had in it once , all the pellets used gave wider performance figure across the types and the Superdomes were below 11 , but the Titan No.10 seems to follow the same pattern of letting the Superdomes shoot with that extra umph that you don't want.

I've tried and spoilt a few No.10s trying to cure that Superdome performance but slightly altering them just made eveythng else drop, at one time every pellet fitted into a small range between 10.7 and 11.2 and very consistent , but the superdomes would spike at over 11.8 and normally be at least 11.6 , but 11.8 is too near trouble in my eyes .

When I'm peforming better again , perhaps I can remove the piston sleeve and see just how tight to being coil bound a full No.10 is, but then again If I got sent one of the slightly thinner guage No.10's I have normally been sent then I'll probably get different figures all over again. I always strive to get springs cut to exactly where I want them rather than needing to add preload washers , being sent that extra soft version No.10 probably wouldn't allow me the use of many power washers anyway before it was coil bound , I'll have to wait until I come across another thinner guage wire No.10 , then try it again, I do have a few reduced length No.10s which are mainly suitable for .22 versions or even in my TX, but I'm still after that softer cocking .177 spring that this thread started off trying to find , no two springs seem to be the same , in my TX200 kits the No.10 spring in the shortstroke piston kit is actually shorter than the standard piston kit, often you need a bit of extra spring to make up for the loss of volume the short sroke kit produces , not in my case

If RS are making less power in .22, your rifle is oversprung

[Travis299]

This is my HW95L shot cycle with an ARH kit, Vortek seal & GPL-205 lube. Seems fairly mild to me. 16.69 FPE.

https://youtu.be/bywPFmB2_ZM

[dearne75]

Like WWillys results, (I don't have any .22 Hobbys), but Superdome do seem to have a strange performance in several types of guns , I can get set my .22 at just over 11.1-2 with the Exacts and RWS Superfields, same grn weight but the SField are slightly higher powered for the same weight pellets , so design / lead mix must slightly change things , the lighter Express actually made less power , the RS being lighter still made the least amount of power, yet trying the Superdomes I had to decrease the power a bit to keep it from being too warm , some of them would spike at over 12 every now and then , so I had to drop total energy to keep the Superdomes within the same field as the rest of them, but the Superdomes are a mid weight pellet, they defy the lighter make more in springers rule and heavier makes more in PCPs . the original settings of the spring just like WWillys settings , Superdomes seem to be able to add 0.5 +- fpe to an already set spring, different springs can produce different results , I can't remember what spring I had in it once , all the pellets used gave wider performance figure across the types and the Superdomes were below 11 , but the Titan No.10 seems to follow the same pattern of letting the Superdomes shoot with that extra umph that you don't want.

I've tried and spoilt a few No.10s trying to cure that Superdome performance but slightly altering them just made eveythng else drop, at one time every pellet fitted into a small range between 10.7 and 11.2 and very consistent , but the superdomes would spike at over 11.8 and normally be at least 11.6 , but 11.8 is too near trouble in my eyes .

When I'm peforming better again , perhaps I can remove the piston sleeve and see just how tight to being coil bound a full No.10 is, but then again If I got sent one of the slightly thinner guage No.10's I have normally been sent then I'll probably get different figures all over again. I always strive to get springs cut to exactly where I want them rather than needing to add preload washers , being sent that extra soft version No.10 probably wouldn't allow me the use of many power washers anyway before it was coil bound , I'll have to wait until I come across another thinner guage wire No.10 , then try it again, I do have a few reduced length No.10s which are mainly suitable for .22 versions or even in my TX, but I'm still after that softer cocking .177 spring that this thread started off trying to find , no two springs seem to be the same , in my TX200 kits the No.10 spring in the shortstroke piston kit is actually shorter than the standard piston kit, often you need a bit of extra spring to make up for the loss of volume the short sroke kit produces , not in my case

Have you tried a titan no 12 spring?Its a long thin spring as you may know.I did try one in my .177 hw95 during lockdown and from my notes --- cut and finished at 33 coils,247 mm length,40mm pre load(no washers only a thin steel slip washer,1mm ptfe piston liner.After an hour or so of plinking i run 2 pellet types over the chrono
QYS Streamline 8.48g gave 10.35 fpe 740 fps average and 6fps deviation over 10 shots.
Air Arms Express 7.87g gave 11.15 fpe 798 fps average and 2fps deviation over 10 shots.
It may be that at 33 coils it could become coil bound in an HW99 but certainly not in the 95.It was very easy to cock though,hope this may help you.

[TonyL]

Again, excellent information; thank you.

[brk1]

Have you tried a titan no 12 spring?Its a long thin spring as you may know.I did try one in my .177 hw95 during lockdown and from my notes --- cut and finished at 33 coils,247 mm length,40mm pre load(no washers only a thin steel slip washer,1mm ptfe piston liner.After an hour or so of plinking i run 2 pellet types over the chrono
QYS Streamline 8.48g gave 10.35 fpe 740 fps average and 6fps deviation over 10 shots.
Air Arms Express 7.87g gave 11.15 fpe 798 fps average and 2fps deviation over 10 shots.
It may be that at 33 coils it could become coil bound in an HW99 but certainly not in the 95.It was very easy to cock though,hope this may help you.

I'm all in favour of trying different springs , I read around as much as possible and gather information before buying springs blindly if I can, haven't tried a No.12 in one yet but presently have a No.5 in my .177 setup, thats smaller and thinner like a 12, its easily man enough for the job, pretty consistant, especially with the Express pellets , but I can certainly feel the extra resistance to cock the .177 over the .22 . Both mine have steel liners in them as the cocking leaver not being in a shoe tends to sit a bit deeper in the piston slot so again working from information I went steel rather a PTFE sleeve, easily get away with just PTFE in the 97s due to the seperate compression chamber , no room in a TX200 with a No.10 in it though.

I'm certaily all in favour of the piston liner in the open type pistons so no lube can fly forwards, I already had a brand new Aus red seal fail after only 5 shots in one of my 99s, it felt good when first fitted , certainly held a good compression when being rebuilt, whether being pushed down the comp tube or pulled up it sealed just fine , giving it a test shoot it started at about 9.5, on the 5th shot it made 23 fpe . I stripped it straight apart, the piston seal didn't fit anymore at all , pushing the piston down the comp tube you could hear the air letting by, what little bit of moly that was in there seemed to be on the face of the piston seal , obviously it had dieseled , I'm only a light lube wiper, not a cover in gunk merchant, never had it happen before , stripped out that red Oz seal and its had a standard new style HW OEM seal in there for over 3 months now ,Its still got the same amount of lube, I only swapped to piston seals out, that still seals absolutely fine after many shots , unlike the PG4 test , I know for a fact that it was a 26mm seal that I used, it was over 26mm measured and not sized at all , but still came back out with the TP ring clearly embossed in the face of it .

If RS are making less power in .22, your rifle is oversprung

Totally understand what your saying there Rob, normally always works like that , but as I said above in my efforts to try and stop the Superdomes extra power , going down in spring made everything go down as well , I certainly didn't notice the RS pellets become more super efficient, I wasn't going to continue altering the spring to make the RS efficient if everything else went too low , the only .22 guns I own are both 99's , one is actually as a .177 at the moment(extra barrel) but everytime I tried to get them set as near to 11 with Exact type weight pellets , the RS were always low on both set ups . I find the Express very efficient in both setups and the .177 version, but have a rake of heavier pellets , neither of them seemed to like the RS, they shot better with FTT and Exacts . Mine isn't the only setup that performs like that several from AGF have confirmed that Superdome do run high in HW barrels , looking at W Willys figures prove that as well, His Hobbys vs the Superdomes gave the same power virtually 11.6 with either the 11.2 grn Hobbys or the same with the 14.5 grn Superdomes , yet the Express that weigh only 0,15 grn less than the superdomes are clearly 0.5 fpe behind them in power. Looks like I better pick up a tin of .22 Hobbys just for testing purposes when I get round to it.