Webley-Venom Paradigm single-stroke pneumatic air rifle

[greenwayjames]

https://www.facebook.com/John-Bowket...82516061793274


This was the BSA based one for the us market

[greenwayjames]

I will try to find photos and text then post photos of the 12 ftlbs version with underlever.

[tomdavies9]

I will try to find photos and text then post photos of the 12 ftlbs version with underlever.

That sidelever is the photo I was thinking of, be great to see the under lever one too

[Geezer]

Full power SSPs were tried on the market circa 1990. They failed. Pity, because I like them (Dragon, Mohawk), but they weren’t necessarily any better than a good springer back then (think FWB Sport, tuned 80 or 77) and were big heavy and clunky compared to even single-shot PCPs, let alone the post-R7 repeaters or small PCPs (eg Titan Manitou or their lovely little semi-bullpup MCT).

I thought at the time that they would do well, as many would prefer their simplicity over bottles and hoses and the associated faff and cost. I was completely wrong. Thirty years later, nothing has changed.

[brassbanjo]

Full power SSPs were tried on the market circa 1990. They failed. Pity, because I like them (Dragon, Mohawk), but they weren’t necessarily any better than a good springer back then (think FWB Sport, tuned 80 or 77) and were big heavy and clunky compared to even single-shot PCPs, let alone the post-R7 repeaters or small PCPs (eg Titan Manitou or their lovely little semi-bullpup MCT).

Well a TX200 or HW97 is big heavy and clunky compared to a modern PCP - and yet they still sell, so evidently there is still a market for a good self-contained rifle.

The thing about SSPs is not whether they can ever replace the PCP - I can't see that happening, but whether they can be an alternative to the spring rifle.
Yes the Dragon and Mohawk were unsuccessful ultimately, but (just an opinion) both these guns did leave a lot of room for improvement.

So the real question is - can better ones be made?

[cooper_dan]

Well a TX200 or HW97 is big heavy and clunky compared to a modern PCP - and yet they still sell, so evidently there is still a market for a good self-contained rifle.

The thing about SSPs is not whether they can ever replace the PCP - I can't see that happening, but whether they can be an alternative to the spring rifle.
Yes the Dragon and Mohawk were unsuccessful ultimately, but (just an opinion) both these guns did leave a lot of room for improvement.

So the real question is - can better ones be made?

Yes they can, but I've not seen anyone going down what I think is the right route. Fancy cocking linkages aren't enough (which is what most people focus on).
I have laid out a rough design for a full power 'easy' cocking SSP, but I don't even have enough time for one project at the moment so I won't get round to it anytime soon.

[tomdavies9]

The problem with the “production” SSPs is that every single one of them did something really well, and then the rest of the design was compromised in one way or another.

As Dan says a fancy cocking linkage isn’t enough, the PH Dragon imo had the best lever. It’s slick, does the job, reduces strain where you need it to, and most importantly reduces the movement arc from a practicality perspective.

The real magic needs to happen internally. The Paradigm had the correct internal idea, running at a lower pressure and accelerating air, Graham is an incredibly intelligent designer. Bowkett had also in the past played with very efficient and low pressure valve setups, with success from the sounds of it too.

Fully agree with BB that the PCP won’t be replaced, in fact neither will Spring or CO2 while we’re at it. But a competitor/new option to the top end of the spring market is sorely needed.

[cooper_dan]

Thing is Tom, the most advanced money no object SSP will still be much harder cock than almost any springer.
What's the efficiency of a production SSP? Maybe up to 10%?
Something really fancy with some internal magic, maybe 15%?
Most half decent springers will be over 35% so it still isn't even close.
To compete with a quality springer I think you need to add energy from another source. Some kind of hybrid between the PH dragon and a browning airstar....

[tomdavies9]

Thing is Tom, the most advanced money no object SSP will still be much harder cock than almost any springer.
What's the efficiency of a production SSP? Maybe up to 10%?
Something really fancy with some internal magic, maybe 15%?
Most half decent springers will be over 35% so it still isn't even close.
To compete with a quality springer I think you need to add energy from another source. Some kind of hybrid between the PH dragon and a browning airstar....

You can’t argue with physics, but you can bend the end user experience. Who cares what’s going on mathematically so long as you get what you need from the muzzle and the user is happy doing so.

An SSP will never be the same as a springer, but the springer has had decades of development. All I’m saying is the SSP can be better than what was on offer previously.

[cooper_dan]

You can’t argue with physics, but you can bend the end user experience. Who cares what’s going on mathematically so long as you get what you need from the muzzle and the user is happy doing so.

An SSP will never be the same as a springer, but the springer has had decades of development. All I’m saying is the SSP can be better than what was on offer previously.

Yea I agree they can be improved. I was more addressing brassbanjo's question, can they be an alternative to a springer?

[brassbanjo]

Yea I agree they can be improved. I was more addressing brassbanjo's question, can they be an alternative to a springer?

Actually the figures you give are overly pessimistic I think, and the PH Dragon has already proved it - I have one, and it isn't really much harder to pump than a springer
(the cocking force is no more than 35 lbs, according to my bathroom scales)

Unfortunately the Dragon has other failings that let it down - as Tom has said, it needs a simpler more reliable firing valve.
I also think the firing valve has to be the kind that resets itself automatically as you find on other SSPs

[bighit]

The problem with the “production” SSPs is that every single one of them did something really well, and then the rest of the design was compromised in one way or another.

As Dan says a fancy cocking linkage isn’t enough, the PH Dragon imo had the best lever. It’s slick, does the job, reduces strain where you need it to, and most importantly reduces the movement arc from a practicality perspective.

The real magic needs to happen internally. The Paradigm had the correct internal idea, running at a lower pressure and accelerating air, Graham is an incredibly intelligent designer. Bowkett had also in the past played with very efficient and low pressure valve setups, with success from the sounds of it too.

Fully agree with BB that the PCP won’t be replaced, in fact neither will Spring or CO2 while we’re at it. But a competitor/new option to the top end of the spring market is sorely needed.

He may be a great designer, But not as honest as some think.

https://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread...ight=Airpropel

Does his past catch up with him and puts people off working with him?

[RobF]

Does his past catch up with him and puts people off working with him?

The website is off putting enough. What's it running off, a bit of string and an etchasketch?

[bighit]

The website is off putting enough. What's it running off, a bit of string and an etchasketch?

Cant be as bad as the ex UK Edgun dealer. Looked like a child did it with crayons.

[oldcurmudgeon]

To my knowledge Venom were never involved with this particular design.