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Thread: HW95 + Titan No.8 = pain in the arris

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by HW55T View Post
    With the V figures you quote and a 8.44 grain pellet, I make that 11.55 fpe what's the issue here
    the gun peaked at 805fps, albeit with a different chrono at the club, that is over.
    blah blah

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCL_dave View Post
    the gun peaked at 805fps, albeit with a different chrono at the club, that is over.
    What chronograph do you have ? I wouldn't rely on some I phone chrono at the club alone but one that is purpose built.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by HW55T View Post
    What chronograph do you have ? I wouldn't rely on some I phone chrono at the club alone but one that is purpose built.
    tested 805 at the club on phone chrono and tested again when I got home on a f1 chrony at 785

    I don’t know what the phone chrono is called but you hold this box thing on the barrel when shooting and access the data on a phone app…
    Last edited by DCL_dave; 16-01-2022 at 05:37 PM.
    blah blah

  4. #19
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    HW95 spring length

    I just measured my fairly new HW95 .22 spring which was removed for an ARH kit. The spring is 283 mm long. Hope this helps.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCL_dave View Post
    tested 805 at the club on phone chrono and tested again when I got home on a f1 chrony at 785
    Tell the club all members need to chip in and buy a F1 chrony Or take yours and tell them their one is out

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by HW55T View Post
    Tell the club all members need to chip in and buy a F1 chrony Or take yours and tell them their one is out
    …phone chrono was just a fellow club members toy, not the club chrono (club does have a chrono just not convenient to use it when I wanted to)
    blah blah

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    yup.. you need 3.0 or 3.1mm wire

    a titan #8 is apparently 3.3mm = way too stiff
    If the wire is 3.3mm, the active coils just 20 then, assuming the spring OD is 20.8mm, the spring is making circa 31 ft. lb. available to the piston, and the only way to keep it legal will be to make it horribly inefficient, which 4mm of preload will do admirably.

    Problem is the spring is placing a force well north of 200lbf on the piston at release, so recoil acceleration will be fierce. At the point of piston bounce, the spring will offer in the region of just 10 to 20 lbf to resist piston bounce force probably approaching half a ton, hopelessly inadequate, so mucho surge to add to the impressive recoil.

    Jon's right. 3mm to at most 3.1mm wire.
    Last edited by BTDT; 16-01-2022 at 07:35 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by BTDT View Post
    If the wire is 3.3mm, the active coils just 20 then, assuming the spring OD is 20.8mm, the spring is making circa 31 ft. lb. available to the piston, and the only way to keep it legal will be to make it horribly inefficient, which 4mm of preload will do admirably.

    Problem is the spring is placing a force well north of 200lbf on the piston at release, so recoil acceleration will be fierce. At the point of piston bounce, the spring will offer in the region of just 10 to 20 lbf to resist piston bounce force probably approaching half a ton, hopelessly inadequate, so mucho surge to add to the impressive recoil.

    Jon's right. 3mm to at most 3.1mm wire.
    Thanks BTDT, I do not understand the maths involved but the Titan No.8 spring has an OD 20mm, not 20.8mm...


    Think I may have given the wrong impression here... the shot cycle/recoil is snappy but not uncontrollable (never said it was!), I can hold a 1" group at 25m and was hitting knockdowns out to 40m with regularity today at the club, even hit the 55y spinners a couple of times (off the bench).


    As stated the shot cycle is snappy, I would liken it to that of a gas ram (I have owned a few Theobens and HW90s, so speak from experience)


    please correct me if I am wrong - the spring has a finite potential... OK, it is still too much in its current configuration, hence the damn thing keeps going hot especially when more preload is added (or too close for comfort anyway) but if I reduce this springs potential energy still further, then introduce more preload to try to balance out the bounce/slam in the shot cycle, I should reach the point where the gun behaves itself and the shoot cycle/recoil is reduced?...am I wrong?

    It is what it is...I have this spring to play with so may as well experiment with it for now.
    blah blah

  9. #24
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    In real basic terms, Dave, although it's not sounding that bad currently and you can shoot okay with it, shortening the spring further will make it stiffer. Rather than more "solid preload" you want nice, soft, cushioning active coils. If you're happy with it as is, and it stays legal / not too close to the limit, persist and just get used to the gun. But shortening further wouldn't be the way to go and I'm sure you'll be much happier with the manners and cycle with a softer spring fitted in the long term.
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  10. #25
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    if it's 20mm OD it's even stiffer.

    Dave, your last para is incorrect I'm afraid. what you can do is shorten the spring, and eventually it will obviously become legal. But it will not shoot nicely - too much initial acceleration, and not enough preload to control the bounce. As Tony stated, minimising closed coils/ dead preload will give you the best compromise from using this fundamentally rather unsuitable spring.

    One thing that any 95 owner should do, that will also help with bounce is open up the port a bit - 3.0mm is too small. I'd suggest 3.2 as an absolute minimum, but you may well end up around 3.4 optimally (but don't try and optimise with your current spring setup).
    Last edited by Shed tuner; 17-01-2022 at 07:26 AM.
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  11. #26
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    It was explained to be like this. Unwind the spring so it’s straight and imagine it like a lever. A shorter one is stiffer, can lift more but requires more effort to be put in. A longer one is softer, will bend and have a limit of what it can lift but requires less effort.

    The trick is to have a spring that gives the feel and the power, that fits the gun with the desired feel, power and longevity.

    And the best way of pulling off that trick is to run the maths, or ask someone that can. Saves a hell of a lot of time, effort and money.

    The window is quite narrow, it’s like porridge.

    A spring that is too stiff won’t get better. A spring that’s too soft won’t get better. You can play with all the other elements but fundamentally you are doing that to compensate for something rather than arrive at the best setup.

    If you have a garden gate then that might be a good use for the titan.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCL_dave View Post
    Thanks guys, I know I can swap it out for a softer spring but would prefer to work with what I have for the time being.

    does the weight of the spring add to the potential power and piston weight?

    if I chop the dead coils off and perhaps chop/collapse another coil, thus further reducing spring weight and stored energy, will this reduce felt recoil?… obviously I’ll have to pack out the spring guide to get some preload back on the spring… trying to find a balance between spring potential and preload to reduce power and the snappy shot cycle…does this make sense?

    I'm afraid if you want it to shoot nicely you're going to have to let go of the Titan no. 8. Do you still have the original HW spring? Fitted guides in that should be an improvement although many of us struggle to get the 95 shooting as sweetly as it should do on paper. Regards Max
    Plinkerer and Tinkerer

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    It was explained to be like this. Unwind the spring so it’s straight and imagine it like a lever. A shorter one is stiffer, can lift more but requires more effort to be put in. A longer one is softer, will bend and have a limit of what it can lift but requires less effort.
    Interesting way of thinking about it:-)
    Way I visualise it is that it would be a lot easier to compress a 10 foot long spring 6 inches than it would be to compress a 1 foot piece of the same spring 6 inches.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobF View Post
    It was explained to be like this. Unwind the spring so it’s straight and imagine it like a lever. A shorter one is stiffer, can lift more but requires more effort to be put in. A longer one is softer, will bend and have a limit of what it can lift but requires less effort.
    .
    Quote Originally Posted by Frog View Post
    Interesting way of thinking about it:-)
    Way I visualise it is that it would be a lot easier to compress a 10 foot long spring 6 inches than it would be to compress a 1 foot piece of the same spring 6 inches.
    I like both those analogies..
    THE BOINGER BASH AT QUIGLEY HOLLOW. MAKING GREAT MEMORIES SINCE 15th JUNE, 2013.
    NEXT EVENT :- May 4/5, 2024.........BOING!!

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by DCL_dave View Post
    Thanks BTDT, I do not understand the maths involved but the Titan No.8 spring has an OD 20mm, not 20.8mm...


    Think I may have given the wrong impression here... the shot cycle/recoil is snappy but not uncontrollable (never said it was!), I can hold a 1" group at 25m and was hitting knockdowns out to 40m with regularity today at the club, even hit the 55y spinners a couple of times (off the bench).


    As stated the shot cycle is snappy, I would liken it to that of a gas ram (I have owned a few Theobens and HW90s, so speak from experience)


    please correct me if I am wrong - the spring has a finite potential... OK, it is still too much in its current configuration, hence the damn thing keeps going hot especially when more preload is added (or too close for comfort anyway) but if I reduce this springs potential energy still further, then introduce more preload to try to balance out the bounce/slam in the shot cycle, I should reach the point where the gun behaves itself and the shoot cycle/recoil is reduced?...am I wrong?

    It is what it is...I have this spring to play with so may as well experiment with it for now.
    If you were to carry on reducing the number of coils and preloading to suit, you would just increase the spring stiffness and exaggerate the rapid piston acceleration and bounce, and I think you would risk fairly quickly reaching the point at which the spring went solid and the rifle would not cock.

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