Airguns as historical symbols

[45flint]

Collecting old airguns has been a fun hobby since I retired. My passion tends to be researching the history with shooting being a meaningful but secondary part of it. My new acquisition of a military CZ VZ35 is a great example. The history summed up well in this blog:

https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2021...-rifle-part-1/

This rifle was developed at a time when it clearly represented a tool to fight the coming Nazi storm. Unfortunately it was a futile effort as their country was the first to be swallowing up. To me the Czechoslovakian Crest on this rifles represents much?

I contrast this with the unsettling “glorification” of anything with connection to Nazi Germany. In the US any gun with connection to that era sells for much more with many collectors, dealers and shows specializing in this. Currently here there are two VZ35 with Nazi markings that are priced at multiples of a Czechoslovakian model.
If you research the history the CZ VZ35 it is also worth collecting as a symbol of resistance to evil? Unfortunately a futile one.

[Jerry Cornelius]

I must admit I find the plethora of Nazi era memorabilia at fairs like Kempton unpleasant. Each to his own I guess but I can’t imagine even wanting anything with overtly nazi markings

[Hsing-ee]

I must admit I find the plethora of Nazi era memorabilia at fairs like Kempton unpleasant. Each to his own I guess but I can’t imagine even wanting anything with overtly nazi markings

It is kind of grotesque, why would you want that stuff in your home? A French friend of mine said that her grandmother's house in Alsace-Lorraine had been commandeered by SS officers and that they had left behind a large serving spoon with the SS skull etc markings on it. Apparently the spoon had been her mum's kitchen drawer ever since and was used for cooking and at mealtimes. I got her to give it to the local museum, imagine having your dinner dished up using something from a murdeous nihilistic cult! Bad karma.

[Geezer]

I must admit I find the plethora of Nazi era memorabilia at fairs like Kempton unpleasant. Each to his own I guess but I can’t imagine even wanting anything with overtly nazi markings

It is kind of grotesque, why would you want that stuff in your home? A French friend of mine said that her grandmother's house in Alsace-Lorraine had been commandeered by SS officers and that they had left behind a large serving spoon with the SS skull etc markings on it. Apparently the spoon had been her mum's kitchen drawer ever since and was used for cooking and at mealtimes. I got her to give it to the local museum, imagine having your dinner dished up using something from a murdeous nihilistic cult! Bad karma.

Agreed.

[Garvin]

This is a weird historical artefact: a Falke 70 with Nazi markings! The problem with it (apart from the swastika) is that the rifle wasn’t produced until the Nazis were long gone! Probably created by a pro-Nazi fanatic in the 1950s or 1960s…

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....-70/#post-5347

[45flint]

Are Nazi proofs worth $2600?

https://simpsonltd.com/czech-vz35-m5033/

The other one:

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/p...un-al2529.html

[Hsing-ee]

Are Nazi proofs worth $2600?

https://simpsonltd.com/czech-vz35-m5033/

The other one:

https://www.collectorsfirearms.com/p...un-al2529.html

Ah, yes, the Brownshirt Plinking rifle. When British chaps were enjoying a bit of bell-target and half-pints of mild and bitter at the local pub range, and American kids were hunting bullfrogs in the swamp with Daisy BB guns, the SA were preparing for conflict and their evil programme.

The vendors are keen to state NAZI ERA on some of the guns like the Lugers.

I wonder what the value of a 'Nazi' Luger would be if it had the Nazi markings on it, then it was taken by the Soviets and stamped with the Communist stamps and given to a policeman or whatever, then sold to the US collectors as the Moscow police turn over their stocks. Would the 'Nazi' Luger fans still consider it a 'Nazi' pistol or a horrible Commie Red device?

[Hsing-ee]

This is a weird historical artefact: a Falke 70 with Nazi markings! The problem with it (apart from the swastika) is that the rifle wasn’t produced until the Nazis were long gone! Probably created by a pro-Nazi fanatic in the 1950s or 1960s…

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....-70/#post-5347

I have checked that particular verstion of the swastika and the diamond shaped background the swastika is on was a symbol of the Hitler Youth, it looks like the Hitler Youth badge.

Some people's nostalgia is wholly misguided. Or perhaps someone was trying to up the little Falke's value by Nazifying it, although in Germany I think it is an offence to use that symbol.

[edbear2]

I must admit I find the plethora of Nazi era memorabilia at fairs like Kempton unpleasant. Each to his own I guess but I can’t imagine even wanting anything with overtly nazi markings

Yet the car park was full of Mercs and BMW's !.

I know it's not exactly the same, but a Google will throw up some nasty stuff about Mercedes especially, When I was in my teens there was still hatred towards anything Japanese or German, to the extent of damage to cars and motorcycles.

ATB, Ed

[Lakey]

Yet the car park was full of Mercs and BMW's !.

I know it's not exactly the same, but a Google will throw up some nasty stuff about Mercedes especially, When I was in my teens there was still hatred towards anything Japanese or erman, to the extent of damage to cars and motorcycles.

ATB, Ed

The thing is I don't think a lot of the German companies that engaged in war time production had much choice. and a lot of the products were really well made, so the survival rate of guns and the like is quite good. I dont have any Nazi items in my collection, but I do kind of understand some peoples fascination with the period. Each to their own.

[Geezer]

The thing is I don't think a lot of the German companies that engaged in war time production had much choice. and a lot of the products were really well made, so the survival rate of guns and the like is quite good. I dont have any Nazi items in my collection, but I do kind of understand some peoples fascination with the period. Each to their own.

I agree there are some really technically impressive and interesting things made in Germany 1933-45, not least weapons. And they are worth having in a collection.

What I don’t get (well, I think I do, but heavily dislike it and think it’s unhealthy) is why, say, where legal, a Walther PP made for the police in 1932 is worth less than an identical 1941 one with Nazi markings and provenance (former used to apprehend criminals, latter to shoot Jews in the back of the head). Or the fascination with SS etc dress daggers, whether real, fake, or repro.

Also, a lot of those companies did make a choice - to employ slave labour.

Getting off soapbox. Dinner awaits.

[edbear2]

The thing is I don't think a lot of the German companies that engaged in war time production had much choice. and a lot of the products were really well made, so the survival rate of guns and the like is quite good. I dont have any Nazi items in my collection, but I do kind of understand some peoples fascination with the period. Each to their own.

Hi Andy,

Whilest I agree to large extent, Mercedes are a special case, others were also quite keen, but obviously it suits the narrative for them to say they had no choice;

According to the book Mercedes In Peace and War, written by Bernard Bellon, the Daimler-Benz Company (makers of Mercedes cars) had a close relationship with the Third Reich. The official company line was that “Daimler-Benz supported the National Socialist regime only to an unavoidable extent for a company of its importance.” But after Daimler-Benz opened its archives in 1986, Bellon uncovered a wealth of information about Daimler-Benz’s military-industrial connection to the Nazi party.

“Leading managers of Daimler-Benz lent valuable assistance to the National Socialists before Hitler became Chancellor in 1933.” Daimler-Benz took out large advertisements in the Nazi newspaper Volkischer Beobachter known for its anti-Semitic propaganda. Once Hitler gained power, Daimler-Benz provided cars to party officials. Hitler typically rode in Mercedes vehicles and was a close friend with Jakob Werlin, associate director of Daimler-Benz. Hitler also owned a portfolio of Daimler-Benz stock administered by Werlin.

When the Nazis came to power they effectively destroyed the unions across Germany. They established a work force based on fear and intimidation that helped Daimler-Benz reduce labor costs and increase profit. In return, Daimler-Benz became the top armaments producer for the Nazis. Daimler-Benz built airplane motors, armored tanks, large trucks and gun barrels for the Mauser rifle. They also built a large section of a V-2 rocket.

Starting in 1941, Daimler-Benz began using Soviet and French POWs as forced labor. Those who refused to work were sent to concentration camps. By 1943, Daimler-Benz used thousands of Jewish concentration camp worker-slaves to build the weapons of the Nazi war machine. The prisoners “toiled eighteen hours a day, cowering under the lash, sleeping six to a dog kennel eight feet square, starving or freezing to death at the whim of their guards.”

In the final weeks of the war when it was clear that Germany would lose, Daimler-Benz shipped prisoners back to concentration camps where they’d be gassed. One group of female inmates at the Sachsenhausen camp survived when the camp’s gas chambers failed to function."

I don't get upset at seeing Nazi stuff in general, I think anyone who has flags and big swastikas etc. may be a bit strange, but in the past I have known people who had Nazi era weapons (I have shot a Police P08 and several Mausers with Waffeamt or SS stampings, you hardly can see them in actuality), the WW1 Imperial markings are huge in comparison. and they were just normal folk, and most weapons of that era were marked as were ours obviously if military issue.

What about re-enactors as well, you hardly ever see "normal" Heer, they always want to be in the SS it seems, as you say there is a huge interest in the WW2 period.

It's a terrible 25 years in quite recent history, made more stark by the surviving records on paper and film for all to see, so I understand why some folk get upset, but if you attach the crimes of monsters to inanimate objects, where do you draw the line, is Japanese stuff O.K.? (swords and yes airguns), or USA 19th cent. (Native Americans), Makarov's (Stalin killed far more than Hitler!).

ATB, Ed

[Geezer]

Hi Andy,

Whilest I agree to large extent, Mercedes are a special case, others were also quite keen, but obviously it suits the narrative for them to say they had no choice;

According to the book Mercedes In Peace and War, written by Bernard Bellon, the Daimler-Benz Company (makers of Mercedes cars) had a close relationship with the Third Reich. The official company line was that “Daimler-Benz supported the National Socialist regime only to an unavoidable extent for a company of its importance.” But after Daimler-Benz opened its archives in 1986, Bellon uncovered a wealth of information about Daimler-Benz’s military-industrial connection to the Nazi party.

“Leading managers of Daimler-Benz lent valuable assistance to the National Socialists before Hitler became Chancellor in 1933.” Daimler-Benz took out large advertisements in the Nazi newspaper Volkischer Beobachter known for its anti-Semitic propaganda. Once Hitler gained power, Daimler-Benz provided cars to party officials. Hitler typically rode in Mercedes vehicles and was a close friend with Jakob Werlin, associate director of Daimler-Benz. Hitler also owned a portfolio of Daimler-Benz stock administered by Werlin.

When the Nazis came to power they effectively destroyed the unions across Germany. They established a work force based on fear and intimidation that helped Daimler-Benz reduce labor costs and increase profit. In return, Daimler-Benz became the top armaments producer for the Nazis. Daimler-Benz built airplane motors, armored tanks, large trucks and gun barrels for the Mauser rifle. They also built a large section of a V-2 rocket.

Starting in 1941, Daimler-Benz began using Soviet and French POWs as forced labor. Those who refused to work were sent to concentration camps. By 1943, Daimler-Benz used thousands of Jewish concentration camp worker-slaves to build the weapons of the Nazi war machine. The prisoners “toiled eighteen hours a day, cowering under the lash, sleeping six to a dog kennel eight feet square, starving or freezing to death at the whim of their guards.”

In the final weeks of the war when it was clear that Germany would lose, Daimler-Benz shipped prisoners back to concentration camps where they’d be gassed. One group of female inmates at the Sachsenhausen camp survived when the camp’s gas chambers failed to function."

I don't get upset at seeing Nazi stuff in general, I think anyone who has flags and big swastikas etc. may be a bit strange, but in the past I have known people who had Nazi era weapons (I have shot a Police P08 and several Mausers with Waffeamt or SS stampings, you hardly can see them in actuality), the WW1 Imperial markings are huge in comparison. and they were just normal folk, and most weapons of that era were marked as were ours obviously if military issue.

What about re-enactors as well, you hardly ever see "normal" Heer, they always want to be in the SS it seems, as you say there is a huge interest in the WW2 period.

It's a terrible 25 years in quite recent history, made more stark by the surviving records on paper and film for all to see, so I understand why some folk get upset, but if you attach the crimes of monsters to inanimate objects, where do you draw the line, is Japanese stuff O.K.? (swords and yes airguns), or USA 19th cent. (Native Americans), Makarov's (Stalin killed far more than Hitler!).

ATB, Ed

Agree completely. (Btw Makarov introduced very late in Stalin’s rule).

[Jerry Cornelius]

.
It's a terrible 25 years in quite recent history, made more stark by the surviving records on paper and film for all to see, so I understand why some folk get upset, but if you attach the crimes of monsters to inanimate objects, where do you draw the line, is Japanese stuff O.K.? (swords and yes airguns), or USA 19th cent. (Native Americans), Makarov's (Stalin killed far more than Hitler!).

Wherever you draw the line nazi emblems are on the wrong side if it if you ask me. I feel the same way about Stalin and WW2 era Japan

German ww2 war materiel, ok. But Once it’s got a swastika, SS runes, or what have you, absolutely not.

That’s my two cents anyway. No one has to agree, we don’t live in a dictatorship

[eyebull]

Wherever you draw the line nazi emblems are on the wrong side if it if you ask me. I feel the same way about Stalin and WW2 era Japan

German ww2 war materiel, ok. But Once it’s got a swastika, SS runes, or what have you, absolutely not.

That’s my two cents anyway. No one has to agree, we don’t live in a dictatorship

One beswastiked or besickled item might be a ghoulish novelty, but you start filling the collection with stuff like that and you're edging into fandom.