Nickel Plated Tell3 Air Pistol.

[Abasmajor]

I have an early Tell 3 (Ser No 49) which has traces of nickel plating evident when the rear sight blade is removed. Does anybody know if nickel plating was an option early in production or if this might have been carried out at a later date.



Brian

[45flint]

No expert but am a Tell 3 collector and have never heard of any nickel pistols.

[ccdjg]

I have never hear of a nickel finish being offered as an option. Is the rest of the gun partly blued or is it currently 'in the white'?

[Abasmajor]

I have never hear of a nickel finish being offered as an option. Is the rest of the gun partly blued or is it currently 'in the white'?

Hello John,

The majority of the finish has gone, but there are remains of nickel plating in places. I checked your book and noted that you record having seen a nickel plated Tell 3, but had no evidence of it ever being advertised as a factory option.



Brian

[ccdjg]

Brian, I do recollect seeing one quite a while back, but was not convinced then that it was original. Of the several catalogue adverts I have, none mention the nickel option.

The thing that bothers me is that any professional nickel plater (certainly one that would be approved by VVW) would never nickel plate straight onto steel, and would apply a thin copper plate first, and then plate onto that. Yours does not seem to have any copper traces (as far as I can see), which would explain why the plating has not survived.

[Abasmajor]

Brian, I do recollect seeing one quite a while back, but was not convinced then that it was original. Of the several catalogue adverts I have, none mention the nickel option.

The thing that bothers me is that any professional nickel plater (certainly one that would be approved by VVW) would never nickel plate straight onto steel, and would apply a thin copper plate first, and then plate onto that. Yours does not seem to have any copper traces (as far as I can see), which would explain why the plating has not survived.

Hi John,
That would make sense. I have never been a fan of nickel plated pistols as any remaining patchy finish looks far worse than the patina left when blueing disappears.

Brian

[Graemevw]

Brian, I do recollect seeing one quite a while back, but was not convinced then that it was original. Of the several catalogue adverts I have, none mention the nickel option.

The thing that bothers me is that any professional nickel plater (certainly one that would be approved by VVW) would never nickel plate straight onto steel, and would apply a thin copper plate first, and then plate onto that. Yours does not seem to have any copper traces (as far as I can see), which would explain why the plating has not survived.

I know nothing of how air pistols specifically were nickel plated, but nickel doesn't NEED a copper layer unless it's designed to live outdoors. The copper gives it more corrosion resistance, can fill imperfections, and is easier to polish than steel, but it also gives a soft layer that can damage easier.
Not all copper plating types can go direct onto steel either. Some need a nickel strike plate first. If it was done that way, and the base nickel peeled, you wouldn't see any copper traces.

As I say, I know nothing of how vintage air pistols were plated but lack of copper layer wouldnt imediately strike me as odd.
The only reason I put a copper layer on my motorcycles plating was due to it getting used outdoors in rain etc and put away wet. For something steel, that lived indoors, and didn't need the same finish perfection as a rolls Royce grill or to last 30 years, I probably wouldn't bother with a copper layer.

I only mention this as I have a bit of a hankering to do some kind of nickel plated pistol and I had already been considering if I would do a copper layer or not. I came to the conclusion that it would probably look better if I didn't.
Just need to decide what pistol to do.

I'm assuming you have a fair bit of experience of vintage nickel plated guns? At least way more than my complete zero experience. Do they normally have a copper layer?

[Graemevw]

The other thing ill say is ive worked in a few plating shops, chrome, silver and gold.
And we used to plate anything we could get out hands on when we were bored.
Tools, tins, keys, bicycle parts, anything.
If it was made of metal and we were bored, we plated it.

If I'd have had air pistols and rifles back then I WOULD have plated them and in future everyone would be wondering why some old mk1 airsporter seems to have had a gold plated finish

The bosses in these places didn't even mind as the process you have to go through to be able to judge how to plate a random object just taught you how to be better at your job. This tell could easily just have been done on someone's lunchtime.

[micky2]

The other thing ill say is ive worked in a few plating shops, chrome, silver and gold.
And we used to plate anything we could get out hands on when we were bored.
Tools, tins, keys, bicycle parts, anything.
If it was made of metal and we were bored, we plated it.

If I'd have had air pistols and rifles back then I WOULD have plated them and in future everyone would be wondering why some old mk1 airsporter seems to have had a gold plated finish

The bosses in these places didn't even mind as the process you have to go through to be able to judge how to plate a random object just taught you how to be better at your job. This tell could easily just have been done on someone's lunchtime.

I am sure that like you say. you and other people that worked in the plating industry would have plating guns ect. and that is why the difference is when a gun comes up where the makers didn't advertise to surply a gun with plating. although you will find some guns that are plated but not by the manufactures, but by owners who wanted a different finish to there guns for what ever reason. sometimes to deceive to get a higher price. l don't think that early firearms where copper plated first before other plating was aplyed.

[ccdjg]

I know nothing of how air pistols specifically were nickel plated, but nickel doesn't NEED a copper layer unless it's designed to live outdoors. The copper gives it more corrosion resistance, can fill imperfections, and is easier to polish than steel, but it also gives a soft layer that can damage easier.
Not all copper plating types can go direct onto steel either. Some need a nickel strike plate first. If it was done that way, and the base nickel peeled, you wouldn't see any copper traces.

As I say, I know nothing of how vintage air pistols were plated but lack of copper layer wouldnt imediately strike me as odd.
The only reason I put a copper layer on my motorcycles plating was due to it getting used outdoors in rain etc and put away wet. For something steel, that lived indoors, and didn't need the same finish perfection as a rolls Royce grill or to last 30 years, I probably wouldn't bother with a copper layer.

I only mention this as I have a bit of a hankering to do some kind of nickel plated pistol and I had already been considering if I would do a copper layer or not. I came to the conclusion that it would probably look better if I didn't.
Just need to decide what pistol to do.

I'm assuming you have a fair bit of experience of vintage nickel plated guns? At least way more than my complete zero experience. Do they normally have a copper layer?

Thanks for your comments. It is always better to get information straight from the horse's mouth rather than books. I have only done a small amount of nickel plating myself, (electro and electroless) so my experience is very limited and most of my information came from books. I do know that you can of course plate straight onto steel if you want, if it is well prepared,and I have done it myself, but the general message I get from the literature is that for a top quality product, and to cover over surface imperfections an initial thin copper plate on the steel is generally used. I always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that companies like Venuswaffenwerk, Webley etc. would have gone for the quality option, especially as the extra cost involved is pretty minimal.

It is a good point you make about the nickel flaking off with the copper still attached.

Whatever the plating technique used, I would still be very suspicious of the originality of any vintage airgun less than 100 years old if it has lost most of its plating, as this suggests that the original plating process was an amateur job and not something sanctioned by the manufacturer of the gun.

[Farsight]

Does the exposed steel show signs of refinishing ? e.g. Do the various stamped and rolled markings appear "flattened" or shallower than one might expect to see on an untouched example ?

Atb.
Mark

[Graemevw]

Thanks for your comments. It is always better to get information straight from the horse's mouth rather than books. I have only done a small amount of nickel plating myself, (electro and electroless) so my experience is very limited and most of my information came from books. I do know that you can of course plate straight onto steel if you want, if it is well prepared,and I have done it myself, but the general message I get from the literature is that for a top quality product, and to cover over surface imperfections an initial thin copper plate on the steel is generally used. I always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that companies like Venuswaffenwerk, Webley etc. would have gone for the quality option, especially as the extra cost involved is pretty minimal.

It is a good point you make about the nickel flaking off with the copper still attached.

Whatever the plating technique used, I would still be very suspicious of the originality of any vintage airgun less than 100 years old if it has lost most of its plating, as this suggests that the original plating process was an amateur job and not something sanctioned by the manufacturer of the gun.

Right to be suspicious, especially in there is no mention of it as an option anywhere and no other examples.
I guess we will never know for sure.

I know nothing of tell pistols, were they high quality and high price when new?

[Abasmajor]

Does the exposed steel show signs of refinishing ? e.g. Do the various stamped and rolled markings appear "flattened" or shallower than one might expect to see on an untouched example ?

Atb.
Mark

Hello Mark,

The pistol is looking quite tired and most of the finish has disappeared leaving a grey patina. The pictures below should give some idea of the state of the usual stampings and remains of the nickel plating.








Brian

[Abasmajor]

I know nothing of how air pistols specifically were nickel plated, but nickel doesn't NEED a copper layer unless it's designed to live outdoors. The copper gives it more corrosion resistance, can fill imperfections, and is easier to polish than steel, but it also gives a soft layer that can damage easier.
Not all copper plating types can go direct onto steel either. Some need a nickel strike plate first. If it was done that way, and the base nickel peeled, you wouldn't see any copper traces.

As I say, I know nothing of how vintage air pistols were plated but lack of copper layer wouldnt imediately strike me as odd.
The only reason I put a copper layer on my motorcycles plating was due to it getting used outdoors in rain etc and put away wet. For something steel, that lived indoors, and didn't need the same finish perfection as a rolls Royce grill or to last 30 years, I probably wouldn't bother with a copper layer.

I only mention this as I have a bit of a hankering to do some kind of nickel plated pistol and I had already been considering if I would do a copper layer or not. I came to the conclusion that it would probably look better if I didn't.
Just need to decide what pistol to do.

I'm assuming you have a fair bit of experience of vintage nickel plated guns? At least way more than my complete zero experience. Do they normally have a copper layer?

I

It's always nice to learn about all aspects of air gun production from knowledgeable people who have hands on experience of the processes involved. I'm aware of some Webley air pistols being supplied with a plated finish to special order and a small batch of Phoenix Hy Score pistols aftermarket plated by a distributor, but doubt that the Tell would have had this option during its production period. It is a low Ser No and recall a thread about the Ser No range but can't recall the lowest and highest Ser Nos recorded.

Brian

[Graemevw]

Hello Mark,

The pistol is looking quite tired and most of the finish has disappeared leaving a grey patina. The pictures below should give some idea of the state of the usual stampings and remains of the nickel plating.








Brian

That looks like it has worn, not peeled. Looks like it's led a hard life.
How old is it?
Looks to me like it was probably plated well when it was done.