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Thread: Non toxic, is .22 the new .177

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyL View Post
    I guess that many people will share my views and emotions.....My livelihood does not depend on shooting airguns. However, I simply could not imagine life without them. I have been "into" them since about the age of twelve. This hobby / pastime / sport of ours has given me so much over the years. It has completely shaped and influenced my life. I have met so many lovely, genuine, helpful, friendly and knowledgeable people through my love of airguns. Many have become friends. And many of them the very, very, bestest friends one could wish to have. I, for one, won't be turning away lightly.
    Tony, I totally agree, and I have been shooting from about the same age too, first rifle was HW35E. It taught me a lot.
    This " hobby / pastime / sport of ours", is exactly that. Shooting is not your life, just enhances it. We make friends in all ventures in life, some are forever and become family and some are hear one minute and gone the next.
    Ultimately, decisions will be made that effect our sport, and if they are catastrophic, then we need to deal with that.
    I dont believe shooting will disappear entirely, but the dynamic we are used to will change, as politics and the yearn for the greener good wins brownie points, if absolutely nothing else.
    Genuine friends will remain, memories cannot be taken away, but life will go on.
    VAYA CON DIOS

  2. #47
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    For years air rifles were designed around the lead pellet, if that changes then manufactures will do the same with Pb free ammo, new barrels that have a slow or high twist to match velocities and made harder to deal with the hardness of the Pb free pellet. Manufacture will not commit fully until its definite, if say we have new faces in politics and a ban doesn't take place then the manufactures would have wasted invested money, they wont shoot themselves in the foot and push out their customers, they want new blood to the sport, new shooters more money for them, early days yet, only you giving up will close them down and put up prices.
    Pb free pellets just like anything new will cost more to start then hopefully drop in price you can be sure of that, as the Chinese will step in and kill European pellet market for being too greedy, they don't want that to happen, I don't see why zinc or monkey metal mazak should be dearer than lead it should be cheaper, much more and as for swaging machining of the new Pb free pellets its just another machine set up just like lead, no different, just different material.. Given more investment and demand the current run of Pb free pellets will either get bigger to match weight of original standard lead designs, so a 21 grain .22 pellet or slug in lead which is heavy for 12 ftlb air rifles now changed to Pb free will be the new standard Eley wasp weight at 14 grains, bigger in volume but lighter in weight ( not sure what the ratio of lead and Pb free lead is). The standard type .22 Eley wasp in lead at 14 grains will be the new light weight Hobby pellet, the Hobby will be extra light etc. May be we will see more slug type or spitzer or boat tailed shapes in future, pellets that will match old airgun barrel twists and velocities which is the key to accuracy especially in the fire arms world, i know i used to reload my own pistol and rifle rounds years ago.

    As for pellet hardness by adding something to Pb free lead or using another material to make it softer on the barrel and target, may be a sintered type material will come, rather than expensive tin use monkey metal mazak with incorporated plastic skirt, to match traditional weights to perform in older guns with tradional rifling twists the projectile will have to be a bit larger in length, may giving more stability over a pellet shape or match it. This time in airgun history there is going to be change, we are in a transitional period, that will work out for the best, a lead ban may not happen on a political scale, remember it was all doom and gloom when the shotgun community had to go through the same thing. If we all have to use Pb free in the end and the ammo is not up to standard and expensive then make your feelings known, you can do it now, get the airgun magazines to voice our concerns to the manufacture because each one now will be competing for the best performing brand as i write, if you dont tell them and spread the word their new pellets are crap then they wont know. Do give up and roll over to political zealots, i wont give up lobbing projectiles ether from air rifles archery catapults or throwing stones, they will have to cut my arms of to stop me..

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC312 View Post
    For years air rifles were designed around the lead pellet, if that changes then manufactures will do the same with Pb free ammo, new barrels that have a slow or high twist to match velocities and made harder to deal with the hardness of the Pb free pellet.
    Studies suggest that, while the bandwidth of ideal twist rates for lead free is somewhat narrower than the ideal bandwidth for lead pellets, the optimum twist rates are much the same irrespective of speed up to ranges of 50 yards. The high speed results for .22 pellets can be seen here. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...3#msg156218783

    I carried out the same studies for sub 12FPE guns and the results were much the same with the same twist rates required.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballisticboy View Post
    Studies suggest that, while the bandwidth of ideal twist rates for lead free is somewhat narrower than the ideal bandwidth for lead pellets, the optimum twist rates are much the same irrespective of speed up to ranges of 50 yards. The high speed results for .22 pellets can be seen here. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...3#msg156218783

    I carried out the same studies for sub 12FPE guns and the results were much the same with the same twist rates required.
    So what do reckon gives poor accuracy, hardness of pellet or lighter weight or is it just like any other lead pellet some guns are fussy and some guns don't like certain brands the same with Pb free, just expensive now to try out different types at £15 for 200 or so. As for Pb free wear in the bore, i would hardly expect it and as for ricochet have to use a softer back stop and enclose the impact are off a bit more. As for expansion on game when i have recovered pellets in the past i have seen no real difference especially with sub 12 ftlb air rifle to give more of a kill effect.

  5. #50
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    OK a brief test of the bsa green star. 177at LVAGC today. They failed miserably in 1 Daystate pcp but were classed as usable in another
    In my HC they were giving rough three quarter inch groups at 33 yards. Same in my Nick G TX200 full length
    No Chrono testing.
    Pellets were used straight from the tin
    I considered cleaning the barrels and putting 20 shots before trying them on target but didn't (which will surprise no one that knows my views on barrel cleaning. Some of the lads are going to buy other makes so we can do a proper comparison
    Pete

  6. #51
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    I didn’t realise there were so many lead free alternatives available?!

    https://www.ihunter.co.uk/product-ca...-free-pellets/

    As I mentioned before I tried some “Air Bullets” many years ago. They didn’t group anywhere near as well as JSB’s in one of my PCP’s but they weren’t completely dreadful. I was shooting FT at the time so not really a goer though. Obviously more expensive as well which didn’t help. Perhaps it’s time a bit more research was done on the subject?

    Even the Americans are getting a bit more environmentally friendly these days!

    https://www.newscientist.com/article...ranium-rounds/

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    Rudeness is the weak mans imitation of strength. Eric Hoffer.

    If I don’t reply to your comments it’s probably because you’re on my Ignore list.

  7. #52
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    What's the point in expensive D/Ufsapds when an NLAW is more likely to penertate?
    Pete

  8. #53
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    It would be interesting to fact find testing out lead free, as well as cleaning out the barrel (be interesting to see if that has adverse affects) and may be after cleaning give the Pb free pellets some form of lubricant, would this improve performance velocity. What results do the manufactures have, how did their tests work when making these Pb free pellets or are they relying on us the shooter to test them. What do they recommend, cleaning barrels and lubing or do we have to find out ourselves.

  9. #54
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    Any ideas for lubricant?
    First one to mention KY Jelly or vaseline will have a special welcome to the Bash
    Pete

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC312 View Post
    It would be interesting to fact find testing out lead free, as well as cleaning out the barrel (be interesting to see if that has adverse affects) and may be after cleaning give the Pb free pellets some form of lubricant, would this improve performance velocity. What results do the manufactures have, how did their tests work when making these Pb free pellets or are they relying on us the shooter to test them. What do they recommend, cleaning barrels and lubing or do we have to find out ourselves.
    Well I've only very rarely seen any manufacturer lead pellet test results, so I doubt they'll be anymore forth coming with lead free

    I'm already doing my own testing & have posted some results in the review section.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by BC312 View Post
    So what do reckon gives poor accuracy, hardness of pellet or lighter weight or is it just like any other lead pellet some guns are fussy and some guns don't like certain brands the same with Pb free, just expensive now to try out different types at £15 for 200 or so. As for Pb free wear in the bore, i would hardly expect it and as for ricochet have to use a softer back stop and enclose the impact are off a bit more. As for expansion on game when i have recovered pellets in the past i have seen no real difference especially with sub 12 ftlb air rifle to give more of a kill effect.
    The main problem is that the moments of inertia of lead free pellets are much reduced compared to lead pellets but the aerodynamic moments are increased due to the higher speeds. This means that for the same inbuilt faults, such as non-central CG or damage on the outer surface, the lead free gives a group size around 50% bigger. The same will be true for pellet barrel fit, any slight mismatch will give bigger errors.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyingfish View Post
    What's the point in expensive D/Ufsapds when an NLAW is more likely to penertate?
    Don't know why you should think that. I worked on research on both man launched missiles and tank rounds when I was working. FSAPDS is the most effective weapon against tanks up to 3KM range. Not much can stop a depleted uranium 4.5kg FS round doing Mach 5+, including ERA or anti missile defence systems.

  12. #57
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    Problem is you need a tank to fire th DUFSAPDS The Ukrainian forces are doing OK with electric motor bikes
    Pete

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by bezza xl View Post
    Interesting thought, I'm just about to buy a new fac air rifle, is .25 the way to go?
    Had .22 .25 and .30 all fac . I think .22 with slugs is the most expensive efficient as you get more shots per charge and using my m3 impact I am shooting H&N 27g .218 slugs at 990 fps and getting about 100 shots a charge. It bucks the wind well and will do .5 and moa groups at 50m and 1 to 1.5 at 100m.
    It also kills all small vermin well . .25 is also very good slightly more power but less shots per fill.

  14. #59
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    Expensive was a typo

  15. #60
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    I wonder how much testing and experimentation is happening behind the scenes right now with the pellet manufacturers and also the rifle / barrel makers and how much communication and cooperation there is between them? There surely MUST be lots happening?

    Maybe a long-standing test series of lead free contenders in the magazines will help and give that stable voice we / the makers need to help develop the lead free into something altogether more suitable for the long term?
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