Our stance against the lead ban Suggestions sort to fight this proposal

[HW777]

Every shooter and every gun shop needs to get on board with this one !

What positive suggestions can you give to appose the lead ban

No silly jokes or sticking your finger up your ass and showing you couldn't give a flying

I can suggest a few ways to make our firm stance, what's your thought's, feeling and suggestions to fight this ban ?

[Rutty]

As a starting point everyone should download and read all the documents from the NSRA website:

Potential Restriction on the Use of Lead in Ammunition

Rutty

[Farsight]

Trying to be positive here
Could we , that is the bodies that supposedly represent us ,that is ,all shooters, enlist some unbiased scientific types to show evidence that the amount of environmental contamination from our hobby is minimal when set against the massive and egregious pollution from sewage, plastics, unscreened builders waste and over development, careless releases and habitual poor practice from agriculture and what's left of some of our industry.
We know what the main problem is for us , we are low hanging fruit for the irresponsible sods running the country who are getting away with paying lip service to dealing with the real problems .
How about giving Prince Charles the opportunity to speak for us ? Maybe he and other people at the top are sympathetic ; who really knows unless it's tried ?
All a bit weak I know, and I expect the usual detractors will now weigh into me , but maybe someone else can offer something useful ... ?
Atb
Mark

[PLAGUE]

Farsight

Thank you Mark.

[IPC1]

You have a good point Mark regarding scientific responses etc but it’s the organisation’s like BASC etc that can enlist such views and produce the data to question the necessity for any ban on particularly Airgun ammunition. The problem is that so many shooters are not members as they’ll spend a great deal of money on their guns, scopes, safes, cases etc etc but won’t pay to join the representative organisations. Maybe now some will wake up and realise that said organisations could well be the only voice we have that would be heard.

[Farsight]

Thanks chaps. IPC1 you're on the money, but so are BASC and there seems to be some feeling among shooters that the organisation have not been as vocal as people would like on several issues over the years and that the game is not worth the candle. If BASC would actually get up on their hind legs and make the right noises for the common man then maybe the subscriptions would be poured upon them.

NSRA stuff is all good , but I fear that suggesting target shooters may leave the sport because of poor ammo will be simply music to the ears of the politicians and chiefs of police.

[tomgun]

I feel we could be lambs to the slaughter here as far as BASC are concerned!
I have emailed them as a full member over the last few months about my concerns over the lead ban for airguners and never had a response!!!

[angrybear]

Well for a start the more air gunners who reply to the consultation, stating non lead pellets are not fit for purpose & listing the reasons, the better.
Along with anything else you can think of that might help.

You can also point out how airguns are good for killing vermin, & should their number be reduced more poisons will be needed which are even worse for nature & poison raptors etc than lead.

There is also the fact that as yet there has been no independent testing that proves beyond doubt that it is lead shot/bullets/pellets.

I'm going to borrow a link from Gordon in FAC that refers to an isotope test that that could be done to prove where the lead comes from that kills birds but has not been done so at the moment,

so until that testing is done we are being condemned by guess work & hearsay, add a comment on that to your reply in your own words.

https://countrysquire.co.uk/2022/04/...ry-of-science/

[Mr.Fixit-Norm]

I was discussing this with a shooting mate the other day. When compared with say shotgun shooters, the amount of lead going into the environment from pest control with an airgun must be minimal.

If you think about it ( and I’m not getting at shotgun users as I’m one also ) the average 12g cartridge holds around an once of shot, a good afternoons pigeon shooting over crops and you could easily use 25-50 carts. That’s 1.5 - 3.0lbs of lead into the fields, mostly in the form of shot smaller than an airgun pellet so more easily ingested by birds and other species.

I can’t see any way a day or afternoons airgun shooting would ever put that much lead out !

I can understand the need to ban lead in shotgun cartridges as the alternatives are available and although more expensive, from what I’ve read they are viable. I don’t think there are any readily available non lead, accurate-in-most-airguns pellets out there ? I think JSB who are one of the most popular pellet manufacturers are marketing non lead alternatives but they only have two versions in 0.177, and one of each in 0.22 & 0.25.
As someone with an FAC airgun in 0.22 I wonder whether the lead free 0.22’s will be accurate as they’re very light at 11.75grains.
They’re all over twice the price of lead versions as well !

I also believe that the proposed ban won’t come into force on airgun pellets for at least 5 years and it looks like the proposals will allow lead pellets on indoor ranges and outdoor ones where proof of pellet capture or regular backstop sieving and capture can be proved ( I think this is right from what I’ve read, but I stand to be corrected if I’ve misinterpreted that. )

To get back to the OP’s question, one of the problems with lighter lead free pellets may be that it’ll put a lot of airguns over the legal limit which would be a major issue, especially in guns that have anti tamper devices.

As an aside I may have to try some of the JSB lead free range ( I have 0.177, 0.22 in legal and FAC and a sub 12 0.25, it’ll be an expensive test but interesting )

Norm

[angrybear]

I quite agree with you Norm, one slight clarification the 5 years is a proposal not a done deal.

They reckon 2000 tonnes of lead per year is shot in to the environment, I'd love to know the breakdown of the figures.

re the legal limits my Scorpion sub 12 .25 doing 11.6-ish with a selection of lead pellets, only gave around 8pfe with the JSB Pb-free
it's another issue with them being so hard, they cannot expand to seal in the barrel.

[HW777]

A nation wide petition to obtain over 100,000 signatures is the first step to getting this debated in the house of Lords.

How do we get every gun shop on board with this ?

[angrybear]

That will never happen, the only way to fight is via the current consultation process.

[BC312]

Lead projectiles don't leach into the ground, dissolve into a liquid form or break down into dust. If you go out and metal detect and find a lead bullet the immediate surrounding soil is not contaminated, the lead from the projectile stays within itself. I have found 100 year old lead bullets in mint condition from .455 revolver projectiles no form of break down etc, even lead artefacts from the Roman period have been found in good condition found in the condition the day they were lost. During WW1 and WW2 there was more lead than ever pumped into the environment than ever before everywhere around the country was a firing range near by, just look on the beaches of the Norfolk coast, the whole area littered with spent ammunition, most of the coastline was a target area but now an environment for wildfowl as its always been, wildlife thats thriving with no defects.
The real problem with lead comes from chemicals and substances that contain lead such as old industrial sites that used cadmium, lead paint etc that was dumped into land fill, imagine the millions of gallons of lead paint manufactured since Victorian times till recent all them doors and windows painted etc that either got burnt in the garden or thrown in the local dump, the lead residue from the paint broken down or burnt into a powder form would leach more into the soil than a contained projectile, even lead shot. I know of old firing ranges built near water courses, ponds etc yet there are no adverse affects on the wildlife in that area.
The HSE who are proposing this ban are scare mongering and using lead as the new wonder element that destroys life on par with nuclear, yes lead is harmful, yet its been around for years in many forms yet are blaming the shooting community, i would be more concerned about the plastic discarded on mass in the country side as the new environmental poison which by the way kills more wildlife than lead yet its still pumped out and used for unnecessary things like wrapping cabbage and cauliflower etc.
With the decline in shooting in this country through legislation we the shooters are blamed for polluting the environment with the small amount we now throw about yet the lead is already there through other means, more dangerous means, old industry practices.

As everyone knows about the HSE they are known for going over the top with safety, i am not surprised by now we are all walking around in safety suites so we don't bump into each other and hurt ourselves.
I find that this is another ploy by they powers to be to ban all forms of shooting another way to bite at shooting and destroy it. Funny how the armed forces can use lead on their ranges, ranges which most target shooters use as well.
I have also seen people on youtube discussions giving in, already appeasing the HSE by suggesting a licence to use lead, what a load of rubbish, so lead is that dangerous, yet you can buy you way out of the situation with a licence. If the shooting organisations gather their facts up about lead and shooting and the impact in the environment you will find the HSE argument full of holes and contradiction, that will be our defence to stop this ban.
The only way the shooting community can contribute to helping the environment is to clean up afterwards which the armed forces already do by sieving out their sand back stops. Indoor ranges the lead spoils can be dealt with which i am sure they are. as for plinking in the garden the lead pellets can be recovered and gathered in a container and disposed of or remelted. As for shotgun pellets, if shot over flat sandy soil could be sieved over every ten years to remove most of the shot or coat the shot.
If the ban does fall flat on its face then we should show that we the shooting community are doing our bit.

[Mr.Fixit-Norm]

Lead projectiles don't leach into the ground, dissolve into a liquid form or break down into dust. If you go out and metal detect and find a lead bullet the immediate surrounding soil is not contaminated, the lead from the projectile stays within itself. I have found 100 year old lead bullets in mint condition from .455 revolver projectiles no form of break down etc, even lead artefacts from the Roman period have been found in good condition found in the condition the day they were lost. During WW1 and WW2 there was more lead than ever pumped into the environment than ever before everywhere around the country was a firing range near by, just look on the beaches of the Norfolk coast, the whole area littered with spent ammunition, most of the coastline was a target area but now an environment for wildfowl as its always been, wildlife thats thriving with no defects.
The real problem with lead comes from chemicals and substances that contain lead such as old industrial sites that used cadmium, lead paint etc that was dumped into land fill, imagine the millions of gallons of lead paint manufactured since Victorian times till recent all them doors and windows painted etc that either got burnt in the garden or thrown in the local dump, the lead residue from the paint broken down or burnt into a powder form would leach more into the soil than a contained projectile, even lead shot. I know of old firing ranges built near water courses, ponds etc yet there are no adverse affects on the wildlife in that area.
The HSE who are proposing this ban are scare mongering and using lead as the new wonder element that destroys life on par with nuclear, yes lead is harmful, yet its been around for years in many forms yet are blaming the shooting community, i would be more concerned about the plastic discarded on mass in the country side as the new environmental poison which by the way kills more wildlife than lead yet its still pumped out and used for unnecessary things like wrapping cabbage and cauliflower etc.
With the decline in shooting in this country through legislation we the shooters are blamed for polluting the environment with the small amount we now throw about yet the lead is already there through other means, more dangerous means, old industry practices.

As everyone knows about the HSE they are known for going over the top with safety, i am not surprised by now we are all walking around in safety suites so we don't bump into each other and hurt ourselves.
I find that this is another ploy by they powers to be to ban all forms of shooting another way to bite at shooting and destroy it. Funny how the armed forces can use lead on their ranges, ranges which most target shooters use as well.
I have also seen people on youtube discussions giving in, already appeasing the HSE by suggesting a licence to use lead, what a load of rubbish, so lead is that dangerous, yet you can buy you way out of the situation with a licence. If the shooting organisations gather their facts up about lead and shooting and the impact in the environment you will find the HSE argument full of holes and contradiction, that will be our defence to stop this ban.
The only way the shooting community can contribute to helping the environment is to clean up afterwards which the armed forces already do by sieving out their sand back stops. Indoor ranges the lead spoils can be dealt with which i am sure they are. as for plinking in the garden the lead pellets can be recovered and gathered in a container and disposed of or remelted. As for shotgun pellets, if shot over flat sandy soil could be sieved over every ten years to remove most of the shot or coat the shot.
If the ban does fall flat on its face then we should show that we the shooting community are doing our bit.

Totally agree with that, well said !

[Mr.Fixit-Norm]

I quite agree with you Norm, one slight clarification the 5 years is a proposal not a done deal.

They reckon 2000 tonnes of lead per year is shot in to the environment, I'd love to know the breakdown of the figures.

re the legal limits my Scorpion sub 12 .25 doing 11.6-ish with a selection of lead pellets, only gave around 8pfe with the JSB Pb-free
it's another issue with them being so hard, they cannot expand to seal in the barrel.

I would like to hope that airgun ammunition would be given an exemption in the end but somehow I doubt it

That sounds from your tests with the 0.25 that it’s probably not worth me spending the money, maybe I just stock up with lead pellets instead. I haven’t done much rough shooting for a while, and haven’t got any land for use with the shotgun now, only airgun.

As BC312 says lead in the form of pellets doesn’t break down really in the environment, the only thing with lead shot used over areas where ducks etc are means they can ingest it as they take in grit in their gizzards to help with digestion and maybe over time the lead affects them although I wonder what credible evidence of this there is.
There is already a ban on lead shot used over water for things like duck and geese so really this should be enough

It does seem like it’s a back door way to hammer shooting sports again

Pest control, especially Wood pigeons and to a lesser extent rabbits is vital to farming and if less pigeon control is done because either peoples guns can’t use the alternative shot or it becomes too expensive then more crops will be devastated and food prices will increase.
I’ve seen first hand what a decent flock of pigeons can do to oil seed rape when it first emerges and also peas.

Gas guns to deter them are a bit useless as the pigeons just fly off to another field then back again when the ones in that field goes off, again I’ve actually witnessed this happening as I’m sure others have.

As BC312 says, plastic in the environment is way, way more of a problem than lead will ever be !