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Thread: Wind, trajectories and writers.

  1. #1
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    Wind, trajectories and writers.

    It sometimes seems like I am just bashing my head against a brick wall trying to explain how a cross winds affect projectiles. Even after Jim Tyler wrote an article in Airgun World explaining how pellets are affected by a cross wind, there are still writers in the mags who are spouting the old theories about the wind blowing on the side of the pellet. There have been a few recently. One was explaining how the wind pushes on a pellet, causing the downwind drift. No it doesn't. Another was explaining how on a spinning pellet, the cross wind will be causing the spin to be cutting into the wind or being pushed by the wind depending on the wind direction, giving different drift values left and right. Absolute rubbish, it is simply a factor of the normal spin drift curve combined with the straight sight line, which makes it appear that wind drift is different depending on which direction the wind is blowing. In reality, it isn't. It strongly suggests that neither writer actually understands how a pellet reacts and is affected by a cross wind. Now it is not necessary for any shooter to know the details of how cross winds act on pellets to be successful, but, if you are writing in a magazine which will be read by new or young shooters, then surely you should check what you are writing is not misleading readers.

    Also, one has written that if you shoot pellets horizontally and drop a pellet at the same time, they will all hit the ground after the same time to a first order. That is OK, but then he says that there will be small differences due to secondary effects such as Magnus. Yes, there are small differences, but they are nothing to do with Magnus. Magnus it seems is taken to be a strange inexplicable thing which can be used an explanation for something you cannot explain any other way due to the fact you don't know the real reason. Unless you have a pellet which is grossly over stable, the only thing Magnus really affects is the dynamic stability.

    I am not naming the writers involved, they are not the only ones, so it would not be fair. They are just two I have seen recently, but surely it cannot be that difficult to find out the real mechanism for down wind drift or the forces involved in simple trajectories, even from the forums if nowhere else (but not on Utube).

    Rant over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballisticboy View Post
    It sometimes seems like I am just bashing my head against a brick wall trying to explain how a cross winds affect projectiles. Even after Jim Tyler wrote an article in Airgun World explaining how pellets are affected by a cross wind, there are still writers in the mags who are spouting the old theories about the wind blowing on the side of the pellet. There have been a few recently. One was explaining how the wind pushes on a pellet, causing the downwind drift. No it doesn't. Another was explaining how on a spinning pellet, the cross wind will be causing the spin to be cutting into the wind or being pushed by the wind depending on the wind direction, giving different drift values left and right. Absolute rubbish, it is simply a factor of the normal spin drift curve combined with the straight sight line, which makes it appear that wind drift is different depending on which direction the wind is blowing. In reality, it isn't. It strongly suggests that neither writer actually understands how a pellet reacts and is affected by a cross wind. Now it is not necessary for any shooter to know the details of how cross winds act on pellets to be successful, but, if you are writing in a magazine which will be read by new or young shooters, then surely you should check what you are writing is not misleading readers.

    Also, one has written that if you shoot pellets horizontally and drop a pellet at the same time, they will all hit the ground after the same time to a first order. That is OK, but then he says that there will be small differences due to secondary effects such as Magnus. Yes, there are small differences, but they are nothing to do with Magnus. Magnus it seems is taken to be a strange inexplicable thing which can be used an explanation for something you cannot explain any other way due to the fact you don't know the real reason. Unless you have a pellet which is grossly over stable, the only thing Magnus really affects is the dynamic stability.

    I am not naming the writers involved, they are not the only ones, so it would not be fair. They are just two I have seen recently, but surely it cannot be that difficult to find out the real mechanism for down wind drift or the forces involved in simple trajectories, even from the forums if nowhere else (but not on Utube).

    Rant over.


    So the pellet is still travelling in a perfectly straight line in the air mass it was fired in, regardless of that being left or right of the target it was aimed at,
    The wind wouldn't affect the pellet itself, just where it lands.
    Am I on the thinking on the right lines,

    Martin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moss74 View Post
    So the pellet is still travelling in a perfectly straight line in the air mass it was fired in, regardless of that being left or right of the target it was aimed at,
    The wind wouldn't affect the pellet itself, just where it lands.
    Am I on the thinking on the right lines,

    Martin
    First, a pellet never travels in a straight line, either vertically or horizontally. Secondly, assuming you are firing stable pellets, if you are not then you have far bigger problems than the effects of wind, the pellet will turn to face the combined airflow direction and thus has no airflow to the side in either direction.

    If you really want to know how it works, look at Jim's article in the July 2019 Airgun World, or this post. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...0#msg155928900

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    By the sound of it they are explaining how a bullet will act, while I assume you are specifically referring to a diabolo when you say it will rotate to face the windflow ?

    Must be honest I have never heard that before, & while I rarely shoot targets if it's windy the pellets still make nice neat holes, I've never noticed any "crabbing"

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    By the sound of it they are explaining how a bullet will act, while I assume you are specifically referring to a diabolo when you say it will rotate to face the windflow ?

    Must be honest I have never heard that before, & while I rarely shoot targets if it's windy the pellets still make nice neat holes, I've never noticed any "crabbing"
    Unless you’re shooting in a gale force wind side-on it wouldn’t be noticeable
    “We are too much accustomed to attribute to a single cause that which is the product of several, and the majority of our controversies come from that.” - Marcus Aurelius

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    Have you written an article or post on the subject? (Specifically the effect of cross winds on a pellet). If so, could you direct us to it as I think many of us would be interested to read it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    By the sound of it they are explaining how a bullet will act, while I assume you are specifically referring to a diabolo when you say it will rotate to face the windflow ?

    Must be honest I have never heard that before, & while I rarely shoot targets if it's windy the pellets still make nice neat holes, I've never noticed any "crabbing"
    As said above, the angle is very small, so you will not be able to see it with all the other things. Bullets, pellets, bricks it makes no difference, the mechanism on objects flying through the air is the same provided they are stable.

    Quote Originally Posted by bill57 View Post
    Have you written an article or post on the subject? (Specifically the effect of cross winds on a pellet). If so, could you direct us to it as I think many of us would be interested to read it.
    There is a link in post number 3.

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    Well, I know when listening to Mike Dixon (ex Olympic Biathlete) commentating on the Biathlon he often explains how in a strong wind adjusting in to the wind is not enough as the wind/spin direction will cause the POI to either rise or fall,
    so the athlete must also compensate for that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    Well, I know when listening to Mike Dixon (ex Olympic Biathlete) commentating on the Biathlon he often explains how in a strong wind adjusting in to the wind is not enough as the wind/spin direction will cause the POI to either rise or fall,
    so the athlete must also compensate for that.
    What you are talking about here is the vertical effect of a cross wind, which is a completely separate effect to the down wind drift, depending on a large number of properties. I explained how this effect is caused here. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...1#msg156293941

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballisticboy View Post
    There is a link in post number 3.
    Oops, sorry. I missed that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballisticboy View Post
    First, a pellet never travels in a straight line, either vertically or horizontally. Secondly, assuming you are firing stable pellets, if you are not then you have far bigger problems than the effects of wind, the pellet will turn to face the combined airflow direction and thus has no airflow to the side in either direction.

    If you really want to know how it works, look at Jim's article in the July 2019 Airgun World, or this post. https://www.gatewaytoairguns.org/GTA...0#msg155928900

    Thanks for your answer Ballisticboy,
    I looked at the links and they're an interesting read, I've been reading Jim's articles for a long time and too be honest a lot of his work is wasted on me, but the mist's are slowly starting to clear
    Would you think there's anything in the sabo design?
    I know that the original "Sussex sabo" turned out to be wildly inaccurate but the first stab at most things isn't always the be the best,

    If someone were to come up with a design that worked.... (when you're not too busy)

    Thanks for the information, good luck with the research,
    Martin

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    Quote Originally Posted by ballisticboy View Post
    Magnus it seems is taken to be a strange inexplicable thing which can be used an explanation for something you cannot explain any other way due to the fact you don't know the real reason.
    The equivalent to 'magnus' for the working of the spring/piston and PCP airgun is currently 'harmonics', to the extent that....

    Harmonics it seems is taken to be a strange inexplicable thing which can be used an explanation for something you cannot explain any other way due to the fact you don't know the real reason.

    ...works beautifully.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BTDT View Post
    The equivalent to 'magnus' for the working of the spring/piston and PCP airgun is currently 'harmonics', to the extent that....

    Harmonics it seems is taken to be a strange inexplicable thing which can be used an explanation for something you cannot explain any other way due to the fact you don't know the real reason.

    ...works beautifully.
    Spot on Jim.

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