Webley Mk 3 & Diana model 45 ?

[cringe]

T 120 please tell us more?

[cringe]

[QUOTE=cringe;8145817]T 120 please tell us more? i am finding this most interrsting kind regards al,

[45flint]

Hi , just a theory ? Re: repatriations ? Mel-Bro won all of Diana's tooling etc 'post war' they were gifted [grants , subsidy's cheap rates etc] by government at time to create work & jobs. in poor areas?
So , Melbro sets up factory etc, in Motherwell. But wee problem ! we can not drop forge in Motherwell, I guess that is when Web & scot come into story ?
As I say it is only my thoughts , so Webbo being in steel city at the time , get original moulds for 'D 45' from melbro, & may be customise them ? left hand -right hand tap? etc. ?

Hi , 45 flint , sorry I do not want to appear disrespectful , but to be truth full I doubt very much that Webley & Scot had any idear when the war was going to end , it could have all gone "tit's up " & we would all be speaking German! kind regards Al.

According to Thrale in Webley Air Rifles, Webley decided in their board meeting during the War to use the Diana 45 as the basis for the Mk3. They built the rifle from their own machinery and never used Diana’s tooling.

Webley was losing money making the complicated MK2 and the easiest thing to do is copy a successful rifle. Ironically the much praised Sheridan Company did the exact same thing in the US. Their high end SuperGrade was making no money so they copied the successful and cheaper to produce Benjamin and changed the exterior to look like a different rifle.

[cringe]

So the Mk 2 was never to go back into production after the war, ..who knows , perhaps the tooling was bombed ? perhaps Webley realised that it was over engineered & would never be profitable [ I do have one & love it -it's sort of Heath Robinson & 'Steam Punk' ! ] but hey , back to the Mk 3 , I had a poke about ! with my vernier calipers , thinking is this metric or imperial ? and there seems to me to be nothing that I could identify either way ? may be only screw threads etc.

[45flint]

So the Mk 2 was never to go back into production after the war, ..who knows , perhaps the tooling was bombed ? perhaps Webley realised that it was over engineered & would never be profitable [ I do have one & love it -it's sort of Heath Robinson & 'Steam Punk' ! ] but hey , back to the Mk 3 , I had a poke about ! with my vernier calipers , thinking is this metric or imperial ? and there seems to me to be nothing that I could identify either way ? may be only screw threads etc.

Thrale’s book says that they realized that they were not making money on the MK2 and were looking for a alternative before the War. Webley I believe was not bombed and may have helped them get back into production sooner than some of the competition? The MK3 is imperial I believe.

[Garvin]

, if so it would appear that us Brits have been looking through rose tinted glasses since 1947 - extolling the craftmanship of British engineering & design etc- when actually it was made in Germany in early 1930,s ?

Yes, but as Evert points out, all the prewar Diana underlevers were based on (ie. pinched from) the Lincoln Jeffries design - starting in approx. 1915 with the first model Diana 58 military trainer (that is, a British air rifle design being re-purposed to train Germans to kill Brits more efficiently with firearms in WW1 ).

So indirectly, the Webley Mk3 can be attributed to the genius of LJ...

What this reflects is two advanced industrial economies piggy-backing/leapfrogging each other for advantage, militarily and otherwise, on and off through the 20th century.


Edit:

I wonder if the the parts are interchangeable?

Some parts might be interchangeable with a bit of tweaking. It may not be comparable but I remember sending Frank some 1930s BSA parts to fit in his series 3 Diana 58 and I think the tap/lever and tap cover did.

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....-58/#post-2510

[cringe]

Yes, but as Evert points out, all the prewar Diana underlevers were based on (ie. pinched from) the Lincoln Jeffries design - starting in approx. 1915 with the first model Diana 58 military trainer (that is, a British air rifle design being re-purposed to train Germans to kill Brits more efficiently with firearms in WW1 ).

So indirectly, the Webley Mk3 can be attributed to the genius of LJ...

What this reflects is two advanced industrial economies piggy-backing/leapfrogging each other for advantage, militarily and otherwise, on and off through the 20th century.

Forged Steel.
Looking at the design of , for instance 'under leavers' they appear to me to be so similar that ? could they have all come from the same factory / forge ?

[Garvin]

Forged Steel.
Looking at the design of , for instance 'under leavers' they appear to me to be so similar that ? could they have all come from the same factory / forge ?

I doubt it.

[MDriskill]

Have you chronyed the Diana? Was it date stamped?

I've never chronyed it. No date stamp; the only markings on the action are the Diana logo on the receiver tube, and a dealer marking on top of the barrel. The number "45" (but not "flint!") is written in pencil on the wood under the steel buttplate.

[Garvin]

I've never chronyed it. No date stamp; the only markings on the action are the Diana logo on the receiver tube, and a dealer marking on top of the barrel. The number "45" (but not "flint!") is written in pencil on the wood under the steel buttplate.

Mike did you ever remove the 45's tap cover? I think the serial numbers I've seen on the 45 and 58 were on the inside of the tap cover, the tap housing, and on the tap itself.

[Geezer]

Mike did you ever remove the 45's tap cover? I think the serial numbers I've seen on the 45 and 58 were on the inside of the tap cover, the tap housing, and on the tap itself.

Are those serial numbers, or an assembly number to ensure that the - presumably hand-fitted - tap parts stayed together during final assembly/finish?

[T 20]

Are those serial numbers, or an assembly number to ensure that the - presumably hand-fitted - tap parts stayed together during final assembly/finish?

I always thought the numbers on the Webley MK3 were there for reassembly after bluing ?

[Garvin]

Are those serial numbers, or an assembly number to ensure that the - presumably hand-fitted - tap parts stayed together during final assembly/finish?

I suppose they could just be assembly numbers on the Dianas but I've never seen two alike so far. Perhaps using three numbers when two would probably do as makers marks, suggests serial numbers?