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Thread: Advice on filling a empty gun off divers tank

  1. #1
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    Advice on filling a empty gun off divers tank

    Looking for advice here chaps. Went in gun cabinate today to wipe down and fire a few pellets through my b&m bullpup daystate ph6 to find the gun was empty so seal gone or slow leak most likely. Tried filling and heared a hiss near block. Cocked gun and it took air but not showing gun pressure on divers tank reg. Gauge working when filling and showing tank pressure. Now i was to shit to carry on filling the gun as not knowing the pressure worred me. Gun cocked and dry fired so air was enough to stay in gun so guessing there must be at least 100bar to keep the guns fill valve closed. Any idears as i dont have a hand pump as back up as that could have been a safer way to check the gun pressure than trying the tank again. And a springer guy mostly so not as clued up on tank reg problems as others on here. Just dont want to risk a bad accident over filling the gun as you can understand. And ideas or answers id be most greatful chris

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    Don't quite understand when you say gauge on tank not showing, but something worked when filling ?
    is there a gauge or manometer on the rifle or is it only the cylinder gauge ?
    if there's a gauge on the rifle just go by that, until you replace the cylinder gauge.

    If not just be methodical, reconnect the rifle, close the cylinder bleed valve, slowly crack open the main valve while you watch the gauge,
    if you hear the rifle valve open & hear air flowing but the gauge does not show, then stop, you need to replace the cyl gauge before doing anything else simple as that.

    Remember of course that the cyl gauge registers against the outlet back pressure in the hose (unless you have a dual gauge regulator fitted to the outlet)
    Last edited by angrybear; 29-05-2022 at 10:11 AM.

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    I'm also a little unsure of what your saying?

    But if you are filling the gun with the cylinder connected, then both gauges should be working if everything is correct.

    If your guns gauge is not working then perhaps that is broken, if the dive cylinder gauge is not working then perhaps that one is broken, but it's very unlikely that both would have failed.

    If the cylinder gauge is working while your filling, but then goes to zero when you stop, then your connection whip is leaking, as it's not holding air between the cylinder and the whip.

    If this is the case, it may be that you have put some air into the gun - but not enough to register on the guns gauge, and the pressure you have seen on the whip is not real, as its pouring out somewhere, so giving a false reading.

    I'd initially make sure the whip was working properly by using a blanking plug or another gun to check it. If that is all good, then check the foster fitting to the Daystate to make sure it's connecting properly and not leaking. If that is also good, then slowly fill your gun and the cylinder gauge should reflect this, the guns gauge should also reflect this, but perhaps be a few bar behind as the pressure in your cylinder is "pushing" up the pressure in your gun.

    Like all things, if you have someone local they could get to the bottom of this is seconds if they know what they are doing, it may be worth a shout out if you can't get is yourself

    James
    I'll be an Air-Gun God when I master the 4th Pineapple!

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    Ok. When i open the tank it shows the tank pressure.when i close it it should show the guns tank pressure. When i shut the valve it aint showing the guns tank pressure. Thats why my A hole is twitching as i dont know what pressure is in the gun. Both guns aint showing any pressure so could there be a fault on the divers tank regulator?

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    To start at the beginning.
    Close the bleed valve on the line from the tank. This could be a 'turn' screw or an automatic push button. If you cock the rifle then connect rifle to tank and slowly open the tank valve to let air into the rifle, the guage on the tank will show pressure increasing as the airline pressure rises. There should then be a 'click' as the rifle inlet valve opens and air goes into the rifle. But if rifle is empty the click may not be there and air will flow into rifle straight away. The gauge on the rifle, assuming there is one, should now show the pressure of the air in the rifle and the tank guage the same pressure, almost. I think the PH6 charges to c 160bar? Anyway, don't go above it or even go to about 120 bar at this point. If during this operation you can hear air escaping then you have a problem to investigate. If you manage to get air into the rifle and then close the valve on the tank (at about 120 bar on the tank guage) and open the bleed valve on the line between rifle and tank then, all being well the air in the rifle should stay there while the excess air in the line between rifle and tank should escape. If all air in the rifle escapes at this point then you have a problem with the inlet valve on the rifle as it is not sealing to keep the air in. Air could escape from the inlet valve mounting (usually a dowty washer) or from the internal seal in the valve
    If air is going into the rifle but not registering on the gauges you may be able to tell where it is going: likely escape routes are from where the gauge screws into the rifle, if it has one, or down the barrel if the rifle exhaust valve is faulty or even a fault in the air line between rifle and tank.

    Good luck
    Cheers, Phil

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILBA View Post
    Ok. When i open the tank it shows the tank pressure.when i close it it should show the guns tank pressure. When i shut the valve it aint showing the guns tank pressure. Thats why my A hole is twitching as i dont know what pressure is in the gun. Both guns aint showing any pressure so could there be a fault on the divers tank regulator?
    Er not quite,

    Firstly you need to close & seal the circuit, that can be with a blanking plug, or by fitting the rifle to the end of the hose.

    Now when you open the cylinder valve the gauge on the cyl will show the back pressure in the hose, up to the pressure that is in the cyl,

    if that pressure exceeds the pressure in the rifle it will force open the rifle fill valve and you will hear the air flow in to the rifle.

    As the rifle fill valve opens you should see the cyl gauge flick down to whatever the rifle contains & while filling the cyl gauge reads for the whole system including rifle.

    When you close the cyl valve the gauge reads what is in both the hose & the rifle, and should hold that pressure until you vent it,

    then you open the vent to drain the hose so that it can be disconnected & the cyl gauge drops to zero.

    Obviously, you cannot fill the rifle with more pressure than the cyl contains & at every rifle fill the cyl pressure will drop until it to needs a refill.

    Also you keep saying 'regulator', when it probably isn't one, which is pretty confusing.
    a regulator is a device to control the amount of pressure that comes out of a cylinder it will have two gauges one for the cyl pressure & one to set the outlet pressure.

    The cyl has a 'Valve' to open & close which on a surface cyl has a gauge & bleed valve built in to it,
    or on a scuba tank without a gauge, you should have an Airgun Adaptor which has a gauge, bleed valve & the hose which fit to the cyl outlet.
    Last edited by angrybear; 29-05-2022 at 05:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    Er not quite,

    Firstly you need to close & seal the circuit, that can be with a blanking plug, or by fitting the rifle to the end of the hose.

    Now when you open the cylinder valve the gauge on the cyl will show the back pressure in the hose, up to the pressure that is in the cyl,

    if that pressure exceeds the pressure in the rifle it will force open the rifle fill valve and you will hear the air flow in to the rifle.

    As the rifle fill valve opens you should see the cyl gauge flick down to whatever the rifle contains & while filling the cyl gauge reads for the whole system including rifle.

    When you close the cyl valve the gauge reads what is in both the hose & the rifle, and should hold that pressure until you vent it,

    then you open the vent to drain the hose so that it can be disconnected & the cyl gauge drops to zero.

    Obviously, you cannot fill the rifle with more pressure than the cyl contains & at every rifle fill the cyl pressure will drop until it to needs a refill.

    Also you keep saying 'regulator', when it probably isn't one, which is pretty confusing.
    a regulator is a device to control the amount of pressure that comes out of a cylinder it will have two gauges one for the cyl pressure & one to set the outlet pressure.

    The cyl has a 'Valve' to open & close which on a surface cyl has a gauge & bleed valve built in to it,
    or on a scuba tank without a gauge, you should have an Airgun Adaptor which has a gauge, bleed valve & the hose which fit to the cyl outlet.
    My bad angrybear. So the dive cylinder valve with guage is just a valve. Sorry i though wrong. Ok so i need tp keep the pressure going to force open the gun valve? The gun is empty so the valve should be open due to no pressure in the gun? Never had to fill a completely empty gun before so that why i was concerned not seeing pressure when i closed the dive tank valve. Just a bit twitchy as i mentioned earlier i have not had to fill a empty gun before so made me a bit nervous seeing no pressure reading when valve in tank was closed. Thanks very much for all the comments. Bloody springers are so much easier

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    Quote Originally Posted by WILBA View Post
    My bad angrybear. So the dive cylinder valve with guage is just a valve. Sorry i though wrong. Ok so i need tp keep the pressure going to force open the gun valve? The gun is empty so the valve should be open due to no pressure in the gun? Never had to fill a completely empty gun before so that why i was concerned not seeing pressure when i closed the dive tank valve. Just a bit twitchy as i mentioned earlier i have not had to fill a empty gun before so made me a bit nervous seeing no pressure reading when valve in tank was closed. Thanks very much for all the comments. Bloody springers are so much easier
    Yes, if you're sure it's empty, not just a duff gauge on the rifle, so cock & dry fire it to check
    Provided it is empty, cock the rifle (to take any spring pressure off the firing valve), connect the cylinder & open the cyl valve,

    Now if the fill valve is a bit stuck you might want to give the cyl valve a good turn open (as much twist as you can do in one wrist move) rather than just try to crack it open, so that the initial pressure hits the valve hard,
    but once it opens start to close the valve to slow the fill speed.
    Always keep your eyes firmly on the cyl pressure gauge while filling, it tells you everything you need to know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    Yes, if you're sure it's empty, not just a duff gauge on the rifle, so cock & dry fire it to check
    Provided it is empty, cock the rifle (to take any spring pressure off the firing valve), connect the cylinder & open the cyl valve,

    Now if the fill valve is a bit stuck you might want to give the cyl valve a good turn open (as much twist as you can do in one wrist move) rather than just try to crack it open, so that the initial pressure hits the valve hard,
    but once it opens start to close the valve to slow the fill speed.
    Always keep your eyes firmly on the cyl pressure gauge while filling, it tells you everything you need to know.
    Thanks very much for the advice. Will try it tomorrow.

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    There could be a couple of issues here. You are already aware that for some reason the rifle has lost it's pressure.
    I'd advise not trying to fill the rifle, any further, unless you can confirm the cylinder valve is working correctly.

    Firstly, I'd suggest confirming that your cylinder has enough pressure as your cylinder could be empty. You'll need to get a blanking plug from Best fittings, or borrow one.
    Fit the plug in the end of the whip and crack the cylinder valve open.
    The bottle gauge will then read the pressure in the cylinder as the pressure in the cylinder and whip will equalise.
    You really need to have more pressure in the cylinder, than the rifle fills to, or you only get a part fill.
    When you've gone through that, and you are sure you have enough pressure in the cylinder, and the cylinder gauge works, then try a fill on a mate's "known" rifle just to be sure.

    If you have confirmed you have enough air, and gauge is working then carry on
    When your rifle is connected to your dive cylinder, and you open the cylinder valve, the cylinder valve shows the pressure in the whip. When the fill valve opens on the rifle, the cylinder gauge then shows the equalised pressure in the rifle and whip.
    When you decide to close the cylinder valve, the pressure in the whip / rifle, should remain static on the cylinder gauge until you operate the pressure relief valve on the cylinder. At this point, the rifle fill valve will seal, and the whip pressure is vented.
    If the cylinder pressure shown on the whip falls, when you close the valve, you have a problem with the cylinder gauge.

    I'm (possibly wrongly) assuming that your PH6 bullpup, has no gauge. This makes things a bit harder as you may have a rifle fault, though you may not.
    If rifles are shot low in pressure, and you can't judge this if you have no gauge, if there is too little air pressure on the exhaust valve the valve can open and the rifle will empty. This is caused by the hammer spring forcing the hammer onto the exhaust valve preventing it sealing.
    This can prevent a rifle filling properly, and its then necessary to cock the rifle, to take the pressure off the hammer, allowing the valve to seal.

    So to summarise. Check the cylinder gauge is operating and that you have enough air in the cylinder, before trying to fill the rifle any further.
    B.A.S.C. member

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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    There could be a couple of issues here. You are already aware that for some reason the rifle has lost it's pressure.
    I'd advise not trying to fill the rifle, any further, unless you can confirm the cylinder valve is working correctly.

    Firstly, I'd suggest confirming that your cylinder has enough pressure as your cylinder could be empty. You'll need to get a blanking plug from Best fittings, or borrow one.
    Fit the plug in the end of the whip and crack the cylinder valve open.
    The bottle gauge will then read the pressure in the cylinder as the pressure in the cylinder and whip will equalise.
    You really need to have more pressure in the cylinder, than the rifle fills to, or you only get a part fill.
    When you've gone through that, and you are sure you have enough pressure in the cylinder, and the cylinder gauge works, then try a fill on a mate's "known" rifle just to be sure.

    If you have confirmed you have enough air, and gauge is working then carry on
    When your rifle is connected to your dive cylinder, and you open the cylinder valve, the cylinder valve shows the pressure in the whip. When the fill valve opens on the rifle, the cylinder gauge then shows the equalised pressure in the rifle and whip.
    When you decide to close the cylinder valve, the pressure in the whip / rifle, should remain static on the cylinder gauge until you operate the pressure relief valve on the cylinder. At this point, the rifle fill valve will seal, and the whip pressure is vented.
    If the cylinder pressure shown on the whip falls, when you close the valve, you have a problem with the cylinder gauge.

    I'm (possibly wrongly) assuming that your PH6 bullpup, has no gauge. This makes things a bit harder as you may have a rifle fault, though you may not.
    If rifles are shot low in pressure, and you can't judge this if you have no gauge, if there is too little air pressure on the exhaust valve the valve can open and the rifle will empty. This is caused by the hammer spring forcing the hammer onto the exhaust valve preventing it sealing.
    This can prevent a rifle filling properly, and its then necessary to cock the rifle, to take the pressure off the hammer, allowing the valve to seal.

    So to summarise. Check the cylinder gauge is operating and that you have enough air in the cylinder, before trying to fill the rifle any further.
    Can we stick with using the correct name for components please

    A "Pressure Relief Valve" is a pre set automatic safety device, that opens to vent excess pressure before before it reaches a dangerous level,
    the thing you open to vent the hose/whip is a "Bleed Valve"

    Sorry that's rubbish,
    If the pressure in the whip drops between closing the cyl valve & opening the bleed, all it means is that there's a pressure leak nothing to do with the cyl gauge unless that's where the leak is

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    Can we stick with using the correct name for components please

    A "Pressure Relief Valve" is a pre set automatic safety device, that opens to vent excess pressure before before it reaches a dangerous level,
    the thing you open to vent the hose/whip is a "Bleed Valve"

    Sorry that's rubbish,
    If the pressure in the whip drops between closing the cyl valve & opening the bleed, all it means is that there's a pressure leak nothing to do with the cyl gauge unless that's where the leak is
    You need to get out more.

    Lets see if his cylinder is charged first eh?
    And if there was a leak on the whip, do you think he might not have noticed it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    You need to get out more.

    Lets see if his cylinder is charged first eh?
    And if there was a leak on the whip, do you think he might not have noticed it?
    Hi chaps. There is shoeing on guage 260bar innthe dive cylinder. Ph6 takes 170bar.

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    Quote Originally Posted by robs5230 View Post
    You need to get out more.

    Lets see if his cylinder is charged first eh?
    And if there was a leak on the whip, do you think he might not have noticed it?
    So is there something wrong with asking you to call an item by the correct term ? a PRV is not the same as a bleed screw.

    How are people supposed to learn the correct & safe way to do something, if not from reading the correct information, identifying the correct parts, in the first place

    The first post says the gauge is registering the cyl pressure which indicates to me that it contains air, granted no figure was given.

    Yes I would hope he would notice a leak, but stating the whip pressure dropping means the gauge is at fault is still wrong

    OK Wilba
    260bar should certainly be enough to unstick the rifle valve, but what concerns me is how do you know ?

    did you check that with a blanking plug or did it show that when connected to the rifle ?

    because if it read that when you connected to the rifle first time around, then you might have already over filled the gun


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    Last edited by angrybear; 30-05-2022 at 02:50 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    So is there something wrong with asking you to call an item by the correct term ? a PRV is not the same as a bleed screw.

    How are people supposed to learn the correct & safe way to do something, if not from reading the correct information, identifying the correct parts, in the first place

    The first post says the gauge is registering the cyl pressure which indicates to me that it contains air, granted no figure was given.

    Yes I would hope he would notice a leak, but stating the whip pressure dropping means the gauge is at fault is still wrong

    OK Wilba
    260bar should certainly be enough to unstick the rifle valve, but what concerns me is how do you know ?

    did you check that with a blanking plug or did it show that when connected to the rifle ?

    because if it read that when you connected to the rifle first time around, then you might have already over filled the gun
    It showed that when connected to the rifle and i opened the dive tank valve fully so expect as you stated thats the pressure in the whip. I will try ad you said and open and close the valve quickly as it might be the guns fill valve is sticking. Thanks for the info. I was just hesitant as when the pressure went up to over 200 on the tanks guage and nothing happened it frightened me slightly. Thanks very much to you all for your kind input. Chris

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