Webley Mark II Service - roll mark anomaly?

[Leonardj]

Pics and info here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/amer...aly-t9785.html

[Troubledshooter]

Certainly looks different to any I have seen, Len. Here's a couple of pics. of one of mine, S/No: S11588
The impressions have been highlighted either by the factory or a previous owner, so it shows the anomaly clearly :

[Garvin]

Judging by the rounded rivets on the cocking links and the squared shape of the interceptor sear housing, this is a late one. The 'Manufactured by...' stamp on the left trigger housing looks too near the bottom also.

Maybe you just couldn't get the staff during the war?

I used to have a late one which anomalously was missing any stamping on the right side of the cylinder:

[Farsight]

A few thoughts:
Looks to me as though there are still slight traces of the MARK 11 stamping in the correct position below the bolt .
The drag links and cocking shoe are different from those I have seen, being much simplified. The rivet ends are not properly snapped either on the patents side. (Not an expert by the way, but I have handled a few.)
Safety sear has an oddly undercut end.
The bolt handle looks home made.
The font looks more like I've seen on 1960s stuff.

I reckon this was an incomplete gun in a very rough state which someone has had a fair crack at getting working again. The cylinder and trigger block were probably rust pitted or otherwise damaged and have been filed down ;it might be instructive to run a mike over those parts

Atb
Mark

[cringe]

Could it be a copy? I remember reading some where about gunsmiths in India? they could make very good replica's of almost any fire arm. kind regards Al.

[Troubledshooter]

Could it be a copy? I remember reading some where about gunsmiths in India? they could make very good replica's of almost any fire arm. kind regards Al.

That's a thought, although I've never seen a photograph of an Indian made Service rifle.

[Garvin]

Could it be a copy? I remember reading some where about gunsmiths in India? they could make very good replica's of almost any fire arm. kind regards Al.

Al the more I look at this rifle the more I think you might be right.

All the pics here:

https://forum.vintageairgunsgallery....fle/#post-7379

[Leonardj]

Cringe just may have hit the nail on the head.
I have never seen any pics of a copy made in India.

The other subtleties noted by Farsight support the possibility of it being a copy, or having user fabricated bits added.
The bolt shank looks like it may have been angled originally, but straightened later, based on the tell-tale signs of the bolt shank being heated by a torch at its mid-point.

Definitely an odd ball.

Thank you to all for your responses.

[Mr Pusk]

About 30 years ago, pre-9/11, I went travelling in Northen Pakistan and visited a couple of gun villages in the "tribal areas". It was very much on the tourist circuit such as it was - though not without certain dangers, because the Government law extended to the road only. Everyone in those parts carried a weapon of some sort. The main such gun village was Darra Adam Khel. If you Google it you find various photos. The workmanship was amazing - they were turning out Lee-Enfield and AK47 look-alikes by the score, seemily using just files. But these things were not really intended to shoot - they were made from the wrong sort of steel and shooting them was not recommended except in dire emergency. If you were a local and you wanted one to fight with you bought a genuine Chinese or ex Eastern bloc AK, or an Ishapore SMLE. These were much more expensive, because they didn't tend to explode unexpectedly, like a Darra one might. The Darra ones had the purpose of keeping the owner safe - from a distance no one could tell whether he was carrying a real one or a relatively cheap Darra copy, so they might not be tempted to start a fight. That's what we were told anyway. The Darra copies could usually be easily distinguished by the lettering not being quite right - a crown and VR marking on an SMLE for example, and stamped by hand rather than by machine.

I don't remember seeing any air rifles there. But to come to the point, if given a Mark II Webley to copy (just the sort of thing that might have been left over from the Raj), they could probably have come up with something which was a fairly convincing replica, and no one would have been too bothered about the lettering being right. It would have had zero deterrant effect against an enemy, but maybe deterrance wasn't the point - and shooting practice was. Even on the North West Frontier, there could perhaps still be a place for plinking?

[cringe]

Hi, I had look on inter net wikipedia etc and found it very interesting. It seems that the gunsmiths could copy any gun to order, and I imagine a air rifle would be easer to export / import rather than a live round gun , even in 1930's ? So I guess [assuming it is a Khyber] It could have been made for a tourist or a Pakistani who wanted rid of pest's , with out the noise of a live round gun? atb Al.