PCP ramblings?

[Racing]

Guys.
Aware that this is a British based site the truth is that although you´ve got a massive jump on many others of us (that do not live on the isles) there´s a current evolution as far as PCP´s goes that i for one would find very interesting to hear your thoughts on.

There´s no argument that you´ve been doing this PCP stuff for longer than most of us (other parts of the world), and due that have basically fine tuned what´s there to be had as far as the sub 12fpe guns. Calibers and pills both i bet.
Seeing that and then lifting the blanket a tad to regard the FAC counterpart and what´s going on there... Cause the mainstay that i for one at least read up on that stems from Britain is on the sub 12fpe guns.
Rather little is said or dwelled on the higher power FAC´s?

Although a relative newcomer to PCP´s i´m by no means to guns. At age 57 i´ve been around them since i was a kid. I guess to remark that the more things change the more they remain the same. I guess...

Lately though the advances, or whatever you want to call it, made when it comes to PCP guns.. where do YOU think this is heading? Not only as far as Britain on a whole but more so the industry in itself.?

FAC and "non regulated countries", i for one try and read up best i can but.. oh is things ever changing fast at the moment. I guess you´ve all seen for instance the trick shots of Rick and the likes where he uses an Impact in 22 or 25 cal pinpoint shooting stuff at inxs of 400 yards. A distance unthinkable to most just a few yrs back. Hell, the 45 and 50 crowd are chasing 1 km shots. THAT is impressive to me.

Pellet vs slug use, and quite recently FX touted their horn (once again, per friggin always) now marketing their "halo" pills.

What i´m saying is that no matter the power level bound by law really there´s an evolution going on to cater to all, and it spills over. To the letter. Hell, we´re all aware that the AEA Zeus is commercially available, and add to that the Finn that produced himself a 20mm gun reaching over 6000 Joules out the snout.
Why i bring that up on a 12fpe forum?

Well. As i regard it it stands to reason that development follows as far as power limited guns too. New alloys, shapes and terminal ballistics are basically presented daily as of current. What was "hot n new" last month is old news by now.

Up here where i live for instance to this day PCP´s are under permit (when hunting) mainly as "rodent infestation guns", as silly as that might sound. N yeah yeah.. i know. Insane, but that hands that the gun HAS to be able of 150J minimum. Yes. To hunt rats even.

Our laws of course differ from yours, but it´s besides the point really. For instance, given a choice and you´re going after a rough deer, stalking it, would YOU stretch for say a 45cal PCP or a powder burner like a 30-30?
Cause, IMO, the PCP sure carries a number of benefits on the matter. Lightweight, enviroment friendly, as a sub sonic about silent and so on and so on..

I guess in contrast to the entire 12fpe deal we on a general whole see PCP guns becoming of higher and higher muzzle energies and atop that with more and more effective pills as far as terminal performance, which in the end as noted spills over to 10J and 12fpe guns too..and so the story goes.
Yes, of course this spills over to power limited offerings/guns too, but.. where is it heading?
Take the current lead ban debate for instance? Where´s that going to leave us? I have a REAL hard time seeing how a 177" caliber pill could be had to be expanding at 12fpe speeds.
You guys tell me.

correct me on this, but reading up on here (always interesting) and comparing notes i find that many of you pick .177"/4,5mm as caliber of choice when hunting small game? As this keeps pill speed up i recon? Thereby larger temporary cavity and so on on game?
That said, how many of you are currently hunting using hollow point slugs?

I for one can attest to that on rodents 22 or 25 hollows are downright devastating. Literally. To the point where when i opted to shift from pellets to hollow point slugs i had a hard time taking to heart to which degree.. cause it is that massive. Like the flick of a hand.

As of current i believe it´s the ZA boys that heads way as far as the 22cal crowd and non limits - that aside. Marketing 40 grain pills and having them exit at even super sonic speeds but.. yeah well.
Larger calibers (30 and up) i try to follow best i can and they´re sure used state side for even big game. Add to the confusion, i guess, how we have set the limits at hand by tradition for different areas and countries of the world.

That said.
I guess there´s no stopping development and evolution but.. where would you see that become of benefit to YOU guys?

Around here? We´ve got an outdoors and wild life you don´t. Thus far it´s all been about powder burners but i for one could sure see that change. IMO, and i´ve been around hunting since a kid, i would these days have no quarrel what so ever bringing a say 50cal bullpup to hunt mid sized game around here (which of course would be a gun under permit to me too).

But when i read up here on the sub 12 forum it´s about small game, which i grasp and understand by all means. Out of those of you using hollow points for these guns what´s your observations?
Take squirrels for instance, to us that´s a protected species. In short, to us it´s unheard of making that into a meal.
Pheasants? Would it be any difference to you to hunt that pellets vs hollow points you think? Rabbits? Same deal? We don´t really get rabbits but more so larger hares, and these are of course on the menu.

Will the use of hollow points, and their derivates, become a game changer for 12fpe use you think? Will it make you take shots you would otherwise not?

Nuff rambling on my part, i believe you get the idea here. What´s YOUR take on all of this?

[Bellycrawler]

To me most things are rocket science so I keep everything as simple as I can. I hunt .177 / .22 @ sub ,12ftb & .22 @ 28ftb. After a few experiments I prefer flat heads sub 12ftb upto 15yds & domes out further. I done a mix of accuracy / penetration / expansion tests & concluded the best for all round results domes are best. I keep my air fac power down simply for economical air use & for my hunting targets & range I shoot at it works well. With riseing costs an increase of interest for larger cal' pcp rifles might happen but at the moment small economical air use (air cost) rifles are more sought after. C/F rifles cost about £1+ a bang so wait & see. The large cal' pcp market is very small in the UK at presant compared so maybe you would be a source of info for us on this subject ?

[angrybear]

Here in the UK it's the law that really governs everything, we have both the sub 12ftlb/FAC law & separate rules over what calibres can be used to shoot what prey.

So generally, a Rabbit is the largest prey most airgun shooters can legally shoot, whether sub 12 or FAC, those who have Hares can shoot them, but we don't really have them in the numbers,
and because the same law covers getting an FAC air rifle, as covers any other Firearm it makes more sense to choose a Rimfire for pests or centre fire which can legally be used to shoot Fox/Deer, rather than choose FAC air.

By far the majority of airgun shooters in the UK only shoot sub 12, at paper/tin targets so have no use for anything other than .177, because of that it's become almost "folk law" that it's the only "accurate" calibre which is the primary reason it's also popular with pest shooters, things have been slowly changing but us Brits are a stubborn race & convincing a dyed in the wool .177 shooter that it's worth learning the trajectory of a .25 is hard work when they can't see any real benefit.

Here in the UK There is no practical market for large calibre/High power air,
the law will not change to allow their use on larger prey, so there is no market for them, and if there is no market there will be no call to change the law = catch 22.

[Racing]

What i´m reading into your replies is that none of you have dwelled on the use of hollow points at all?
If so, why´s that?

Even for rodents and the likes (pests in general i guess) a hollow point that expands hand a more surefire kill no doubt.
My point being that energy transfer looks the same no matter if a 177 or a 30 cal when we´re talking hollows, or.. that´s the intent at least.

[gsxrman]

Most of us who shoot vermin have tried every kind of pellet shape, size and weight.
Generally it is accuracy that kills, not shape of ammo, weight of pellet or calibre.
The brain is a tiny target in airgun quarry.
The most accurate pellet in your rifle is the one to use. Period.
This tends to be the traditional dome head pellet.
I only shoot sub 12 .177 air rifle. I use 7.9 grain Crossman's. They are the most accurate, stable in the wind pellet I have used.
I do like the heavies too, but generally 7.9. They take rats at below 10m and rabbits past 50. One shot one kill. End of.
Yes they go straight through a lot of the time, but have mangled the brain on the way and the quarry just drops.
For me beyond the 55m range its .22 LR territory. I cant see the point in FAC air when a cheapish Rimfire does the job better.
Hollow points are not as accurate, but manufacturers make them to be accurate and therefore don't squash or flatten out as one would expect, at 12ftlb anyway.
Accuracy is king, brain shot from 7.9 beats a flattened out larger projectile off its mark as this just wounds and leaves quarry suffering.

[angrybear]

What i´m reading into your replies is that none of you have dwelled on the use of hollow points at all?
If so, why´s that?

Even for rodents and the likes (pests in general i guess) a hollow point that expands hand a more surefire kill no doubt.
My point being that energy transfer looks the same no matter if a 177 or a 30 cal when we´re talking hollows, or.. that´s the intent at least.

I've tested various hollow points, including Slugs, 'cross points' like the Hades, and 'hunting' pellets like predator polymag's, both at sub 12ftlb & .25cal 46ftlb FAC.

My conclusions are that at sub 12ftlb there is very little point in using any of them, they only give any measurable expansion if the ballistic jelly is within a foot or two of the muzzle, go out to 20yds & there's nothing.

They are slightly better at FAC power, but then so are the diabolo, when I tested at my 42yd zero, slugs did not turn inside out, as some people show on youtube, nor did Hades or Bisley Pest control,
the best expansion I saw was from the Predator Polymag's, which were also very accurate in .25cal.

Maybe if you're shooting at 60+ftlb they do expand but to me that's rimfire level.

[junglie]

What i´m reading into your replies is that none of you have dwelled on the use of hollow points at all?
If so, why´s that?

Even for rodents and the likes (pests in general i guess) a hollow point that expands hand a more surefire kill no doubt.
My point being that energy transfer looks the same no matter if a 177 or a 30 cal when we´re talking hollows, or.. that´s the intent at least.

Do you not think most of us will have tried HP pellets by now & come to the conclusion wadcutters do the same job at short range? I do like the rws HP though as they're cheap but at sub 12 good old hobbys work on vermin just as well at short range. Big difference at fac velocities though i would guess.

[junglie]

I've tested various hollow points, including Slugs, 'cross points' like the Hades, and 'hunting' pellets like predator polymag's, both at sub 12ftlb & .25cal 46ftlb FAC.

My conclusions are that at sub 12ftlb there is very little point in using any of them, they only give any measurable expansion if the ballistic jelly is within a foot or two of the muzzle, go out to 20yds & there's nothing.

They are slightly better at FAC power, but then so are the diabolo, when I tested at my 42yd zero, slugs did not turn inside out, as some people show on youtube, nor did Hades or Bisley Pest control,
the best expansion I saw was from the Predator Polymag's, which were also very accurate in .25cal.

Maybe if you're shooting at 60+ftlb they do expand but to me that's rimfire level.

Glad someone got good accuracy from the polymags, i still have half a small tin of the .177's i was given about ten years ago to try, hitting the target sideways in most of my .177's at 15 m although i just found my old bsf S70 likes them, when the little traffic cones fall out they do look remarkably like a rws hollowpoint with slightly longer skirt though i noticed & seem to fly straighter but i've not been desperate enough to pull the rest off to try yet....lol.

[Racing]

Hm.
Might be i´m off target here a little. As development and evolution of pills strive forwards...which happens, like it or not..
An 8 grain pill moving at just beneath 850fps should most certainly start to expand if so designed. 8 grains for a 177 caliber gun? Sure i´d say.

For accuracy in turn.
Yes. Slugs present a somewhat different ballgame, granted. The more pronounced choking of barrels inherent with the use of pellets is out, but let me assure that slugs can be had just as accurate, if not more so. Especially as ranges open up, better BC is better BC no matter how you regard it and that WILL come into effect swapping from pellets to slugs.



Granted, different power level. No argument on that one, but we just did this non reg Hatsan Factor. Using 218" slugs ranging from 30-40 grains hunting for accuracy we ended up with a combination that hits a golf ball at 90 meters (basically 100 yards) with ease.216´s and that thing won´t hit the broadside of a barn.

Can/could that be mimiced for a 177 gun at lower muzzle speeds? There´s no doubt in my mind...

..which is what i´m saying here. It´s not only a matter of if pellet or slug, development and evolution most likely can not be taken to a stop. Thus, as i regard it, it´s just a matter of time before someone presents a better mouse trap.

I agree 100% on the accuracy statement. Accuracy is king, but the thing is that it can be had using slugs too. I sincerly hope noone´s debating that?

[junglie]

Hm.
Might be i´m off target here a little. As development and evolution of pills strive forwards...which happens, like it or not..
An 8 grain pill moving at just beneath 850fps should most certainly start to expand if so designed. 8 grains for a 177 caliber gun? Sure i´d say.

For accuracy in turn.
Yes. Slugs present a somewhat different ballgame, granted. The more pronounced choking of barrels inherent with the use of pellets is out, but let me assure that slugs can be had just as accurate, if not more so. Especially as ranges open up, better BC is better BC no matter how you regard it and that WILL come into effect swapping from pellets to slugs.



Granted, different power level. No argument on that one, but we just did this non reg Hatsan Factor. Using 218" slugs ranging from 30-40 grains hunting for accuracy we ended up with a combination that hits a golf ball at 90 meters (basically 100 yards) with ease.216´s and that thing won´t hit the broadside of a barn.

Can/could that be mimiced for a 177 gun at lower muzzle speeds? There´s no doubt in my mind...

..which is what i´m saying here. It´s not only a matter of if pellet or slug, development and evolution most likely can not be taken to a stop. Thus, as i regard it, it´s just a matter of time before someone presents a better mouse trap.

I agree 100% on the accuracy statement. Accuracy is king, but the thing is that it can be had using slugs too. I sincerly hope noone´s debating that?

Slugs seem to work better at fac velocities too & at the price they are i think plenty of us here in the uk would rather heat their houses this winter......if i was using an fac rifle i might consider them, but only then.

[Racing]

No doubt pricing plays a role.
Slugs thus far are no doubt more expensive than pellets.

As i do "FAC power" only really i´ve played around with a plethora of them, slugs that is, and they´re NOT all alike. I can tell you that much. Just like pellets it takes a bit of testing before you touch down on what THAT specific rifles fancies.
Seeing the cost of a tin of pills then... yeah.

My 25cal Impact for instance, loves the ZAN 41 grain pills but it sure took a little noodling around before arriving on that, as has it for all my PCP´s.