Thoughts and perceptions of AR style airguns?

[Shed tuner]

Problem is the non-shooting community outnumbers the shooting community by probably 100:1 & they are the people who elect Gov'ts,
so, their opinions are important

or 10,000 to one around here....

[Craig-P]

Problem is the non-shooting community outnumbers the shooting community by probably 100:1 & they are the people who elect Gov'ts,
so, their opinions are important

Certain members on here were getting their knickers in a twist about ‘black rifles’ and the opinions of the non shooting community over twenty years ago. There are a lot more military styled models available today and further technology has been born directly from them. So twenty odd years of being paranoid really hasn’t paid off for them so far

[Shed tuner]

I'm going to answer this a little different (although AB is making essentially the same point).. It depends a lot on whether you are a shooter or not, and we need to face that reality that shooting generally does not sit well with the general public (yes, it may be a lack of education, but that's the reality - half the world problems are founded ina lack of education, so we aren't going to solve that !)

I'm shooting (safely, legally) in my backyard, and a neighbour observes me from their upstairs bedroom window.
In the three different scenarios I'm shooting:
a) Webley Service
b) AA S400
c) Hellboy M4 carbine AR style BB repeater

let's say the neighbour is a fellow shooter. In the three various scenarios they may be thinking:
a) ooh, a webley service.. I wonder if he has the interchangeable barrels ? With matching serials ?
b) nice gun, they really are timeless
c) "Walt" !

Now the more likely situation; the neighbour is a non shooter, with Joe Public's generally low opinion, and even lower understanding, of "guns":
a) Interesting, that looks like an antique
b) hmm, should he be doing that in the garden ? Is it legal ?
c) "RUN !!!" <dials 999>



So I guess us answering as shooters is almost missing the point... we may think the tacticool shooter is a walt, or there may be good reasons to have such a gun (e.g. NV use / compact, whatever). But it doesn't really matter what we think.

What Joe public thinks really does matter, for the reason AB stated.. they outnumber us 1000:1 and they have the same vote, for the politicials who govern our sport. They may be uneducated (yes, both the public and the politicians ), and we should always be looking for opportunities to pro-actively educate and challenge incorrect understanding, but from a PR perspective, tacticool and Joe Public are a very bad combination for the long term future of our sport.

All IMHO

[Craig-P]

I'm going to answer this a little different (although AB is making essentially the same point).. It depends a lot on whether you are a shooter or not, and we need to face that reality that shooting generally does not sit well with the general public (yes, it may be a lack of education, but that's the reality - half the world problems are founded ina lack of education, so we aren't going to solve that !)

I'm shooting (safely, legally) in my backyard, and a neighbour observes me from their upstairs bedroom window.
In the three different scenarios I'm shooting:
a) Webley Service
b) AA S400
c) Hellboy M4 carbine AR style BB repeater

let's say the neighbour is a fellow shooter. In the three various scenarios they may be thinking:
a) ooh, a webley service.. I wonder if he has the interchangeable barrels ? With matching serials ?
b) nice gun, they really are timeless
c) "Walt" !

Now the more likely situation; the neighbour is a non shooter, with Joe Public's generally low opinion, and even lower understanding, of "guns":
a) Interesting, that looks like an antique
b) hmm, should he be doing that in the garden ? Is it legal ?
c) "RUN !!!" <dials 999>



So I guess us answering as shooters is almost missing the point... we may think the tacticool shooter is a walt, or there may be good reasons to have such a gun (e.g. NV use / compact, whatever). But it doesn't really matter what we think.

What Joe public thinks really does matter, for the reason AB stated.. they outnumber us 1000:1 and they have the same vote, for the politicials who govern our sport. They may be uneducated (yes, both the public and the politicians ), and we should always be looking for opportunities to pro-actively educate and challenge incorrect understanding, but from a PR perspective, tacticool and Joe Public are a very bad combination for the long term future of our sport.

All IMHO

In all fairness the amount of cheap, ‘AR’ looking rifles that are bought to be used in the backyard probably outweighs the ‘classic’ looking variant. Very few low range rifles feature wooden stocks any longer, so surely black / poly stocks sail very close to the tactical looking line.
If the police are called to such a scenario, I’m sure they’d ask in what circumstances the rifle is being used in. It the answer to that is , ‘in the main road with a military looking gun’, then fair enough - expect the ARU. But again if the answer is, ‘shooting cans in the backyard, with a back stop’, then I’m sure the outcome would be entirely different.

[gsxrman]

Personally, I don't see any real advantage with a "tacticool" air rifle. Stupid name that as they are anything but cool. They are here and that is it and plenty people use them. Black ABS stocks are good in the field for people who are, lets say slightly clumsy or view an air rifle as a tool, as some are used as that. My Ripley has been out in the field many times rabbiting and is immaculate. Do they offer an advantage over a traditional air rifle, I don't think so. Definitely no more accurate which is the big one for me. There are plenty traditional looking rifles with high shot count, or short and compact or loaded with latest tech. Most people buy them because of the looks rather than performance, as they don't out perform traditional air rifles. If they did you would see them on the FT/HFT scene winning trophies. I don't think we influence "Joe" with whatever rifle you shoot, even a hand made Walnut and Rosewood piece of art is still a weapon in most eyes and should not be used. All we can actually do is stay within the law and shoot as responsibly as we can.

[Craig-P]

Again I can't agree with all those points - clearly a 'tactical' rifle is no more accurate but also no less accurate. After all, the 2019 EBR 50 Yard Benchrest competition was won with ( shock, horror ) an RTI Prophet.
If you look at rifles used in International Precision Rifle, you'll see 99% wear adjustable chassis system stocks. Airgun tech has followed the footprint set by full bore and continues to do so.
Surely Airstreams/LG110's/Challengers and anything with an alutec stock or three piece grip set can therefore be classed as 'tactical' - and they win all the HFT/FT titles...
A collapsible/AR style stock offers infinite adjustment, suiting not only usage from a vehicle or hide etc - but also being adaptable for smaller shooters ( I'm looking into replacing my daughters rifle, a collapsible stock would allow me and my Mrs to use it comfortably too ). As stock suitability and fit is a major part in the fundamentals of accurate shooting, I'd say a tactical stocked rifle is already a step ahead of the traditional stuff.
And at what point does rifle become 'tactical?'. We've got a Parker Hale Enforcer and a few sporting Enfields at work, following the census on here, they're classed as traditional in their native format. However these particular rifles have had rails fixed to them to enable to use of optics and the stocks have been painted. I guess they're not welcome in either camp - shunned by the walnutters and not enough fold out, digital nonsense to fit in with the colonial marine team...
Taticool/Walt etc is the shooter per se. It's a daft mindset and in my opinion that's the dangerous element that needs tackling. If these types choose to turn up at the range sporting a backwards turned cap, aviators, boot knife and a thousand yard stare, then they should be laughed back out - regardless of which kind of rifle they're using.
I'm a fan of both traditional and military style rifles. I use them responsibly and legally and will continue to do so.

As said earlier, this a knickers in a twist argument from paranoid people.

[Rativity]

I agree with this 100%.
Even though I work as a stocker, refinishing and chequering fine pieces of walnut for 'traditional' looking rifles and shotguns, I see the numerous benefits of 'military type' rifles for a number of applications. I've used them for years, both air and powder powered - and this argument has been banging on for as many years. Bottom line is they're legal to own and the opinions of some ill-informed member of the non-shooting community to me, are unimportant.
Perhaps we should all go back to shooting BSA Cadets as they're a 'friendly shape'. HW and AA should stop making the 77/97/TX as they could resemble a small caliber O/U shotgun. ISP should stop making the Spartan because it looks like a centre fire stalking rifle - and Gat pistols should be banned because someone who hasn't got a clue might confuse it for a Luger...

Exactly. Joe Public aren’t going to see the difference between a black gun or a beautiful walnut stocked sporter, if they have intentions of calling the police, doubt it matters at all what the gun looks like 🙄

[Muskett]

Is Joe Public beyond being educated?

UK press and lefty politics have forever wanted to disarm the population. Every method and underhanded way used. Why do they do it?
Their efforts have paid off as the UK has massive legislation on guns, to the point the population is basically unarmed, uneducated on guns, and has a bit of a phobia about them. Tell that to a Ukrainian.
I'm all for licensing and mental health checks for dangerous tools, for its in everyone's interest to deny the odd lunatic if identifiable. But the paranoia on guns isn't needed, thats ignorance. Education would help. But then Alarmism is in fashion.

A gun is a gun, and what it looks like is irrelevant. A gun is but a tool. Anything more is about the individual and the responsibility that goes with owning and using one. Be it a water pistol or a full bore rifle, it is all about individual responsibility and education. If you are a shooter then be responsible and educate the merits of shooting sports.

My greatest distain goes for those who believe they are somehow entitle to think Joe Public can't be trusted. How very superior they are. The same that would want Joe Public to defend them in times of war and crisis.


Base line is: if its legal buy whatever you fancy. Please do educate the public if and when the occasion arises. I have both woody rifles and black rifles.

[where's it gone]

It was while watching a TV program the other night, about model trains, that I thought it won't be long before add on sound effects will be around for the airguns we're on about. Probably with the co pistols for starters. If it can be fitted on a odel OO scale train, then why not ? Now there's a thought.

[Biker_Bob]

The point about "tactical" weapons is that they are designed to survive in combat. So I think my comments about an airgun should look like an airgun mainly stem from my feeling that a tactical style (because it can't actually be tactical) airgun basically is a comical thing, there it is looking like something from a Navy Seal team operation - all rufty tufty but all it can do is poop a tiny little pellet out the front at a few hundred fps....

[Craig-P]

but all it can do is poop a tiny little pellet out the front at a few hundred fps....

But isn't that the case of all air rifles?
It's a similar mindset to those who laugh at the FT shooter and ask, 'why do you need to spend a couple grand on an optic to hit a target 50m away?'

[Biker_Bob]

But isn't that the case of all air rifles?
It's a similar mindset to those who laugh at the FT shooter and ask, 'why do you need to spend a couple grand on an optic to hit a target 50m away?'

Yes of course that is the case with all air rifles, but most of them don't look like they're pretending to be full bore assault weapons.

[Muskett]

Tactical? Mass produced firearms for the military. The reason they are black is because its cheap for the paint of the metalwork, and the plastics. When hundreds of thousands are needed then any savings is good.
Recently some of the plastics are done in green; will some be wanting them to stay black for tradition?

The design and layout of modern firearms is done to make them easier to shoot well for their intended purposes. Why they have pistol grips and picatinney rails. If they work for military/police rifles then they are going to work for sporting rifles. We all know wood isn't that stable in wet conditions, so plastic is kind of "fantastic".
All this just reflects rifle design progress and manufacturing techniques.

The argument that rifles should stay traditional and all wood is silly. The same argument might be used for the Police. Police today are dressed up in black combats. What was wrong with their old blue uniforms and top hats of old? What are they Mall Ninjas?

No, the only issue is how journalists and those with a political agenda portray black guns. Political and ignorance drive this baloney. A gun is a gun, and be it the military, the police, for sporting purposes, then they have their use. How responsible people are with them is all about education. Is Putin responsible?
We would all love it if there was a whole lot more love in the world, but reality says different. Guns have their uses. Heck, our freedoms are protected by guns as freedoms are not a given. Snowflakes would melt without them.

[angrybear]

Is Joe Public beyond being educated?

Frankly, yes.

Joe public on the whole doesn't WANT to be educated, they have the opinion that has been drilled into them from birth, no matter what the subject, A is good - B is bad,
and the majority of people, on the majority of subjects, have little or no interest in having that opinion changed.
All they want to do is earn a living & sit watching brain numbing "reality TV"

IF you could introduce shooting sports at school level, then in a generation, opinions would change, as those kids learned it was an enjoyable sport,
but as that will never happen it relies on future shooters to learn through families, living in the country or joining the forces, there will always be a few newcomers, but the majority will have a link.

[angrybear]

Yes of course that is the case with all air rifles, but most of them don't look like they're pretending to be full bore assault weapons.

Nor do most "black" air rifles
They leave that to the likes of Colt/Kriss/M&P/Guncraft/etc rimfires with their fake oversize magazines.