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Thread: Why are Webley pistols so special?

  1. #1
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    Why are Webley pistols so special?

    I started thinking about this after I helped ccdjg make his 'Unrealised pistol prototypes' video.

    When he asked the question 'why didn't they go into production?' the answer was invariably that they were no improvement on the Webley mk1 design, and by comparison were all very over complicated.

    I can't think of another air pistol that was pretty brilliant in it's first iteration, and was steadily improved for 50 years, in a live marketplace, from the Mk1 to the E series Premier. (I'm not a fan of the Alloy mk1's but I'm sure they shoot well, I do absolutely love the later Tempest & Hurricane though.)
    That kind of evolution seems rare in air pistols.

    Doing my '100 years of Air pistol' series of video's, and getting to shoot whole era's worth of my favourite shooters in one sitting the Webley's stand out amongst their contemporaries as having got pretty much everything right. (maybe a bugger to zero in, but perseverance works.) Obviously there are match pistol's like the mod 6 & LP65 series but they are not as fun to shoot.

    I also don't know how they get so much power out of such a tiny pistol, a lot of mine will happily do 3.5 ftlbs and shoot really nicely. My 1924 mk1 does 3ftlbs (!) compared to my Highest possible which does 2.5ftlbs. Both serviced to be shooting at there best.
    I know power isn't everything but I think it's an indication of an efficient design.

    People rave about the HW45 as a power house but my serviced non-deiseling .177 '45 does just over 4 ftlbs, and I see lots of accounts of them only doing 4.5 ftlbs.
    They are so much nastier to shoot than a nicely serviced Webley. I think 3.5ftlbs must be a sweet spot for this sort of design.

    Not to mention the magnificent build quality of the earlier ones......
    Anyway, I think as a functional air pistol they got the recipe right almost 100 years ago.. crazy really.

    I would like to look into this further, Gordon Bruce's book is brilliant, especially for what changes or improvements happened when, but it would be interesting to do an era by era comparison with what else was out at the time, and how they stacked up against whatever Webley was available.

    I don't have any experience shooting some of the earlier contemporaries, like the Abas Major or the Akvoke, I've kind of avoided them as I'd read account's that they weren't particularly good shooters.
    How do they compare?

    Cheers,
    Matt

    ccdjgs prototype vid: https://youtu.be/VCr9RcVnslc
    100 yrs air pistols 1 + 2 https://youtu.be/qt2zfenq4QI https://youtu.be/te6fFFAV1hE

  2. #2
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    I think you're dead right Matt that the Webley's such a neat, compact, efficient design that it deterred and out-competed anyone who thought about trying to squeeze into the market. I guess German air pistols in the '30s only succeeded in getting a toehold in the UK market because importers were able to undercut Webley on price and meanwhile the makers could rely on their home market to provide baseline income.

    I also agree the FWB65 was the postwar equivalent of unassailable market leader in the late late '60s and '70s that left only scraps for rivals and probably deterred some companies from entering the match spring pistol market altogether - Anschutz for instance.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garvin View Post
    I think you're dead right Matt that the Webley's such a neat, compact, efficient design that it deterred and out-competed anyone who thought about trying to squeeze into the market. I guess German air pistols in the '30s only succeeded in getting a toehold in the UK market because importers were able to undercut Webley on price and meanwhile the makers could rely on their home market to provide baseline income.

    I also agree the FWB65 was the postwar equivalent of unassailable market leader in the late late '60s and '70s that left only scraps for rivals and probably deterred some companies from entering the match spring pistol market altogether - Anschutz for instance.
    Cheers Danny, good points there.

    A spring powered Anschutz match pistol?? How on earth had I never realised that before! The company that invented the recoiless spring powered match rifle never made a target pistol.
    I would have loved to see a pistol version of the 220 or 250 rifles.
    Having opened them up though I bet they would have been too complicated. Anschutz we’re operating on a whole other level to everyone else back then.

    Cheers,
    Matt

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    I totally agree that the Webley design produced the most efficient air pistol in a compact design and carried on so many years because of this and the quality of the build. But I think the Germans had a interruption in the early 1940’s that hampered their ability to continue with their designs? If I had to choose one prewar pistol masterpiece it would be the Haenel 28R. The best shooting pistol would be the Webley straight grip Senior.

  5. #5
    ccdjg is offline Airgun Alchemist, Collector and Scribe
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    It would be interesting to know exactly how much Frank Clarke contributed to the design of the Webley Mark 1. His reimbursement contract letter from Webley for his consultancy work says: "...in consideration of the assistance you have rendered us in working our the air pistol having a tip-up barrel, jointed at the muzzle, we hereby agree that during the life of the British patent ......we will pay you the sum of threepence per pistol........

    It doesn't sound much, but that is equivalent to about £1.50 per pistol in today's money, so quite a nice earner for him.

  6. #6
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    I've just fallen into Webley land again. I picked up a very clean Premier E series in .177 from Newark Arms fair.
    I think in answer to the question, a lot of it has to do with the sheer density of the thing.
    For such a small object it's very heavy, being made as it is of steel and for me it's the thought of holding a small piece of proper British engineering - a reminder of a time before everything went to s**t.
    And yes, they can shoot very nicely - interestingly for me the best hold is the exact opposite of the hold required with an HW45. With an HW45 I have to hold it in the standard 1911 combat grip style i.e. loosely at the bottom of the grip, whereas with the Webley I get the best accuracy with a very strong double handed interlocked thumbs hold. I wonder if the thinning of the grip at the top is intended to encourage you to wrap your thumb around there, because that's what it does for me.
    The sights are simple, but I like the way that the windage sledge is slightly tapered, so that it doesn't move when you undo the screw which enables easy elevation adjustment without disturbing windage.

  7. #7
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    I have been a huge fan of Webley air pistols since I bought my first mk1 from a lad at school in about 1957 for 30/-, he needed the cash to buy more rolling stock for his model railway. It had originally been his fathers and he and his sister had used it to shoot matchsticks through the barrel but thankfully not nails!

    I had to fit a new breech seal, piston washer and spring and the barrel hinge bolt had been lost and replaced with a length of Meccano brass studding which also had to be replaced. I acquired all these bits from the local Webley dealer and as a mere 14 year old I found it quite easy to dis-assemble and rebuild the pistol. Learning to shoot it however took rather longer and it took several hundred pellets to be able to shoot it accurately off-hand ie single one handed grip and no support. A couple of years later I also bought a Senior. All this proved invaluable training for when I later joined a local gun club and took up .22 RF competitive shooting.

    After the 1997 handgun ban I started collecting air guns and among many others I added to my collection of Webley pistols and I now own 21 and it all started from that conversation at school all those years ago. I still have that original mk1 and Senior and find all Webleys a joy to shoot but rather challenging now.

  8. #8
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    So far as early adoption is concerned, an air pistol being made by (at the time and in the UK) the most famous makers of real pistols can’t have hurt adoption. On the same theme, in as much as any air pistol “feels” like a real pistol, I think webleys do, with the weight, balance and rearward recoil. Ironically given their unmistakable airgun appearance they may do a lot better in that regard than, say, Steve’s Haenel 28r, even though the latter has the webley beat on looks

    Personally for me once you move away from blued steel to enamel and plastic they largely lose their charm, although can there be a British man alive today under over about 40 who didn’t shoot one as a boy?
    Morally flawed

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccdjg View Post
    It would be interesting to know exactly how much Frank Clarke contributed to the design of the Webley Mark 1. His reimbursement contract letter from Webley for his consultancy work says: "...in consideration of the assistance you have rendered us in working our the air pistol having a tip-up barrel, jointed at the muzzle, we hereby agree that during the life of the British patent ......we will pay you the sum of threepence per pistol........

    It doesn't sound much, but that is equivalent to about £1.50 per pistol in today's money, so quite a nice earner for him.
    Webley didn't know at the time just how successful the pistols would become. If they had, they may have paid Clarke rather less.
    Vintage Airguns Gallery
    ..Above link posted with permission from Gareth W-B
    In British slang an anorak is a person who has a very strong interest in niche subjects.

  10. #10
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    Interesting points made by all. It does feel such a right, compact design. Some think that that lost its way with the Hurricane, but I find my early ,22 the most accurate of my Webleys. And the Tempest restored some of the 'handling'.
    Over the years, owned most models from a tin grip Junior to late Hurri's/Tempest.
    Webley Mk3 x2, Falcon & Junior rifles, HW35x2, AirSporter x2, Gold Star, Meteors x2, Diana 25. SMK B19, Webley Senior, Premier, Hurricane x 2, Tempest, Dan Wesson 8", Crosman 3576, Legends PO8.

  11. #11
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    I love my webley pistols, @ggggr s fault lol.
    I must admit the "love" doesnt stretch to the new fangled plasticated contraption now called a typhoon... Im determined to master it, but ive no doubt it wont stay too long in my collection... Now, if anyone would like to trade this "fine" piece of new webley engineering for a battered old premier or mk1...go on, you know you need to experience all things webley pistol... Lol
    ATB
    Dan

  12. #12
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    fond memories of those pistols in my younger days

  13. #13
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    They're definitely not bad somehow I have more than twenty of 'em! The blued steel versions that is!

  14. #14
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    Why are Webley air pistols so special?

    Maybe not so special but why were they so sucessful? Does that make them special? Possibly.

    In my opinion it's for several reasons, they are in most respects quite useable ( compact moderate weight), they are also well made & reliable; yet they are also easy to work on & service or repair should the need arise. However that's not to say they they are ideal. I don't know if the design criteria specified an overall length or not but an extra inch of sight base might have been nice on the early ones & the Seniors & Premiers too. It might have made cocking them a little easier too but with the double linkage introduced with the Senior that was kind of sorted. Would an extra inch of barrel slowed down a pellet... maybe. If so then a counterbore could have addressed that, maintained the mechanical advantage & given a bit longer sight base too. Thinking of sights, a slightly taller front sight would have been a nice addition. Easier to pick up than the little protrusion on the end of the barrel that seems to adorn all of them. Still with practice it's a pretty useable sight, just not the best to my way of thinking. The triggers on these pistols are generally pretty good, & can be improved with work but that's not the point. The rear sight, well some say its fiddly to adjust, maybe it is but then once its set do you need to adjust it? These pistols are useable out of the box & that is the point. The grips are comfortable enough, ambidextrous too, they seem to be comfortable for a range if hand sizes. The weights ok for most to cope with, they feel solid, not necessarily the most aesthetically pleasing pistols but you can forgive them that because they work & go on working. They were meant to be used, bought for their functionality, not their aesthetics.

    So, I think they are not perfect, but they are very good, they tick most of the boxes for the requirements of an air pistol of its type & the purpose for which it was designed. I think it's popularity & commercial success was down to the fact that it did most things for most people at a price they were willing to pay & for whatever reasons the majority of the competition didn't.

    As a go to plinker the Webley is pretty ideal, the little Junior is great fun to shoot, easier to cock too for an extended shooting session, even the mkII Junior is a pleasure to shoot but for me the Senior is one of the best pistols they made but I do like the Premier B, maybe not the pinnacle of Webley air pistols in some eyes but I like them.

  15. #15
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    A bit too much of a English love fest? Haenel’s did quite well in the US, I see a lot of them come up for sale. Though I truly appreciate the Webley design (I have quite a few of them), Hugo in his brilliance gave us a Luger style pistol that has a 20 shot concentric magazine, that works flawlessly. Machined and finished as well as any pistol. No improvements needed?


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