Original / Diana 35 challenge?

[Mr Pusk]

I picked up an Original / Diana 35 in .22 yesterday. It is an old one – in fact as far as I can see identical to the one in Tom Gaylord’s article at https://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2019...ana-35-part-1/. It is in very nice condition. I’ve taken the action out of the stock and it doesn’t have a serial number as far as I can see, nor does it have the two tiny date markings that Diana started putting on rifles at some point. But how old is it?

Here are the clues:

You can see what it looks like from the Tom Gaylord link. It's in a style carried over from the 1930s.

It’s an “Original”, so post WW2 made for (probably) the UK market.

It’s “Made in Germany” which means (I gather) that it is earlier than 1974, but after they stopped marking them as “Foreign”, whenever that was.

According to Tom Gaylord’s article, this style of 35 was made between 1953-1964.

There’s no serial number that I can find, and I’ve had it out of the stock and looked all over. Does anyone know when Diana started putting them on?

As I said there are no little date markings on the cylinder, so there’s no help to be found there.

There’s a plastic butt plate, with no numbers on it.

It looks as if it has the 3 ball trigger. There’s no safety.

It has a leather breech seal.

There’s no scope rail.

The sights are as per the example in Tom Gaylord’s article, though without the removeable protective insert he discusses later in the series.

Can we narrow it down at all from 1953-64?

Thanks for any pointers.

[MDriskill]

All model 35's have the ball-sear trigger, and a key to tying down the date is the details of the trigger blade (and the dates are just educated guesses on my part). The old models 25D, 27, 35, and 50 used the same trigger mechanism and blade types.

This photo shows the blade used on the pre-war striker-type trigger (top), and a third-generation post-war ball-sear blade. The pre-war blade is case-hardened steel with two adjuster grub screws in the lower face and front shoulder. The post-war blade is solid aluminum with larger countersunk headed screws, both in the lower face, and a ribbed face.




The first-generation post-war trigger is solid aluminum as above, with a smooth blade face. But it has two small screws located similarly to the pre-war ones (even though the trigger internals are quite different). This variant seems rare - perhaps emptying old parts bins? - and just used to maybe 1952.

The second-gen blade keeps the smooth face, but adds the adjuster screws as in the photo. Perhaps up to 1956 on these. The screwdriver access hole in the trigger guard also moved.

The third-gen blade is identical to the second, except adding the ribbed face. Those lasted up about 1962.

This photo shows (top to bottom) the third, fourth, and fifth-gen post-war blades.




The fourth-gen blade is basically a plastic rendition of the previous aluminum. Note only one screw; the previous front locking screw was superfluous as the friction of the adjuster screw against the plastic does the same job. Up to about 1968 on these.

The fifth-gen blade is a complete re-do, stamped blued steel with protruding adjuster screws. Came in about '69 and lasted until the ball-sear guns went out in the early 1980's.

[wil95k]

Imported Uk guns had serial numbers,but if bought in Germany and brought over by an individual it would not have a serial number.

[Mr Pusk]

.

The third-gen blade is identical to the second, except adding the ribbed face. Those lasted up about 1962.

This photo shows (top to bottom) the third, fourth, and fifth-gen post-war blades.

Mike, thank you, that helps a lot. I didn't realise the trigger type would be significant. Mine is the third type with the ribbed face, so that narrows the gap to date it as (roughly) 1956-62.

Imported Uk guns had serial numbers,but if bought in Germany and brought over by an individual it would not have a serial number.

Thank you for that... but my one is marked "Original" which was a trade mark used by M&G for the UK market because Milbro has the rights to the "Diana" trade mark in the UK at that time. If it had been bought in Germany, where M&G sold their products as Dianas, it would have been marked as a Diana, surely?

I do have an imported Diana from the 1960s, a model 60, which has a serial number 651****. The person who sold it to me told me that the first two numbers on the 7 number string dated it to 1965. Now whether M&G numbered Dianas and Originals differently I don't know. But it would be interesting to know when the numbering system started.

I can't help feeling that if we could identify when they stopped marking the guns as "Foreign" and put "Made in Germany" instead we might be able to narrow the date further, if it happened after 1956.

I suspect this information may already lurk in the airgunbbs archives and/or those of Diana forums - the trouble is that the search terms are so common that search results don't help much!

[Faerie]

Imported Uk guns had serial numbers,but if bought in Germany and brought over by an individual it would not have a serial number.

This was quite common & back in the 60's I knew of a number of guns (mostly rifles, mostly "Originals") that had been bought in Germany & brought home by young men who had been stationed there during their National Service.
The last intake of National Servicemen was in 1960, and the last of them left the forces in 1963, which may help date the rifle in question if other factors can be established within reason. Remember too that some liked the forces life & re-enlisted after completing National Service, so may have served in Germany after 1963.

[Mr Pusk]

This was quite common & back in the 60's I knew of a number of guns (mostly rifles, mostly "Originals") that had been bought in Germany & brought home by young men who had been stationed there during their National Service.
The last intake of National Servicemen was in 1960, and the last of them left the forces in 1963, which may help date the rifle in question if other factors can be established within reason. Remember too that some liked the forces life & re-enlisted after completing National Service, so may have served in Germany after 1963.

Interesting... so you and wil95k both reckon "Originals" were sold in Germany under that name at the same time as they were selling the same guns as Dianas? Complicated!

So I wonder when they started numbering "Originals".

[Drew451]

I think it would be difficult to improve on the information provided by Mike Driskill which is of great interest to me as well.
Your 35 should be a nice shooter and a nice find. Enjoy it.

[Faerie]

Interesting... so you and wil95k both reckon "Originals" were sold in Germany under that name at the same time as they were selling the same guns as Dianas? Complicated!

So I wonder when they started numbering "Originals".

Well, I was young at the time but started shooting in the early to mid 60's and clearly remember there being both Milbro and Original Dianas of the same design around, and that many (if not all) of the Originals were brought home by uncles or older brothers who had served abroad during their National Service days.
The Originals were superior guns, being clearly better engineered and finished, and were highly prized by those lucky enough to own one. The Milbro guns were produced on machinery and tooling that had been taken as "war reparations" but was worn out, having run 24/7 making parts for Mauser during the war years, while Original guns were made on new machinery and tooling that M&G had been forced to acquire !
I was very familiar with one particular Original rifle, it having been passed down to a close friend by his dad, who had been in a Reserved Occupation during the war but left his job (which he hated) after the war and was then called up for National Service as a married man in his mid-20's !

[MDriskill]

For what it's worth at this point, Diana triggers as they appear on the assembled guns. Again, I'm 99% sure I have these in the right order, but the dates are just a semi-educated guess...!

[MDriskill]

I do have an imported Diana from the 1960s, a model 60, which has a serial number 651****. The person who sold it to me told me that the first two numbers on the 7 number string dated it to 1965. Now whether M&G numbered Dianas and Originals differently I don't know. But it would be interesting to know when the numbering system started.

There were some interesting notes on this subject on one of the US forums recently. I have two model 60's, one from 1967 and the other from 1982. On both, the first two digits of the serial (which appears on the breech block) match the mid-year date stamp (which is on the rear of the receiver tube).

But a couple of other respondents had 60-series match guns on which the date stamp was from late in the year, and the "first two" of the serial from the following year. This may indicate the receiver tube was date stamped when it was made, and the serial applied at some point later in the assembly process.

[Mr Pusk]

Many thanks Mike, this is all useful stuff. Thanks to everyone who has contributed - I don't think I'm likely to be able to take this much further in my particular case. I shall be quite content with saying that it probably dates somewhere between 1956 and 1962. Narrowing it down to a 6 year window from an 11 year one is still an achievement. But I shall enjoy shooting this rather elegant and classic rifle whichever year it was made in!

And if someone can throw any further light on things like the switch from "Foreign" to "Made in Germany" and the mystery of when Diana/Original/etc started putting numbers on their rifles, I'd still be happy to hear from them.

[MDriskill]

(Deleted)

[original45]

Been some years maybe a decade since I saw or handled mine I bought in poor state. But I liked it. I know from memory it had the aluminium silver ribbed trigger blade and I'm sure no scope rail mounted on top in fact in fair I can't even remember if it had scope grooves either. But I think not ?.

I do remember it felt nice to shoulder and shot well after a service .
Certainly looked well made too.

Thank you for sharing the images , put it back in my memory once again I had forgotten it.

[greenwayjames]

If it were made between 1949 and 1990 surely it should have been marked made in West Germany? Made in Germany surely would only apply before and after those dates? Weren't the Original rifles stamped with the month and year of manufacture on the side of the cylinder above the trigger or is my memory playing tricks?

[MDriskill]

Take this for what it's worth, as I don't have any Dianas with the Original logo, or the FOREIGN marking, but only US imports with Diana, RWS, Hy-Score, or Peerless logos.

All of my post-war Diana guns are marked either MADE IN WEST GERMANY, or only MADE IN GERMANY. The ones with WEST included are definitely older. The oldest gun I have without the WEST is a model 5 pistol with wood grip/frame, which disappeared from catalogs by 1965, according to Mr. Griffiths's outstanding new book. I have several others with MADE IN GERMANY whose details date to the 60's, 70's, or 80's.

So...if (and it's a huge "IF!") the date for changing to the MADE IN GERMANY mark on UK imports, corresponds to that for the US, it considerably pre-dates the actual re-unification of Germany. Why that might be...I have no idea!

The oldest post-war Dianas I know of with individual serial numbers or date stamps are model 60 match rifles, which were introduced in 1963. I have six sporter models made after this; none have a serial number, and the oldest one with a date stamp is from 1973.