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Thread: .223 newbie questions

  1. #31
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    The link from Arris is working so you could use that one

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    Quote Originally Posted by JB101 View Post
    The link from Arris is working so you could use that one

    I tried. Unfortunately it doesn't include data on 50 or 62gr bullets. Oh, and the case is full to the brim at 23.5gr of tubular powder.

    And my powder measure has just committed Hari Kari!

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    Quote Originally Posted by enfield2band View Post
    The bullet has to match the rifling twist. The faster the twist the longer the bullet has to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by enfield2band View Post
    I think that is a generalisation. You don't buy the bullets and match the rifle. You use the bullets that are most suited to the gun. It likes saying get a shotgun with a 3 inch chamber and you can shoot anything through it from 2" to 3".
    On that basis why not just buy a 1:6 twist and you can shoot anything through it.
    I'm sorry. Yes, you buy the bullets that will work in your barrel, but your first post seemed to imply that the bullet length is dictated by the twist, not limited by it - it read as a fast twist needed a longer bullet when actually a fast twist can take a longer bullet, just doesn't need to be a longer bullet.

    My .223" was 1:8 I could get clover leaf groups at 100 yards, (prone unrested with a scope) with 68 gr Sierra Match Kings and 68gr Hornady.
    I tried the military bullet and it was on target but would have need developing to be accurate, maybe!
    Military bullets (FMJs) are inherently less stable than match bullets like the SMK. A small error in finishing the jacket point on a HP bullet is a much smaller turning moment than the same error on an FMJ which is finished at the bullet base. This leads to slightly greater instability in the FMJ and which is why SMKs cost double or more than a similar military FMJ.

    I have found that some particular faster .223 loads give me a very similar group when I test them at 100yds as at 200yds. I was told this could be because the bullet needs time to settle down into its flight and being fast it may travel more than 100yds before it achieves this. I don't know how true the explanation is but it still works out on paper.
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    I have made up some rounds for testing, I have followed the minimum COL in each case, but they are all catching on the lands?

    Do I just reduce the length until they don't?

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    You need an oal gauge

    https://www.hornady.com/modified-cases#!/

    And a .223 modified case.

    And a comparator.. and a caliper to measure.

    Start at 30 thou off the lands.

    Reloading is fun!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinbum View Post
    I have made up some rounds for testing, I have followed the minimum COL in each case, but they are all catching on the lands?

    Do I just reduce the length until they don't?
    I'm not qualified to advise you, but for what it's worth I have read that pressures can climb rapidly if the bullet can't gain at least some momentum before encountering the rifling. Please don't simply experiment with this, good advice is available in reloading manuals.

  8. #38
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    .223

    First, to answer the simple query, you match the bullet to the barrel, 1 in 8 twist is ideal for 60 to 80 gn bullets.

    The COAL length is specific to the bullet, and the barrel free bore, (i.e where it touches), and is specifically importantly to the load, get it wrong, and you have high pressures!

    The wife and I shoot at top level, and shoot Internationally at 300 mts, and load our own ammo (6mmBR and .223) to the highest standards, capable of world level scores at 300 mts, with .223 using 80 gns bullets in a 1 in 8 twist. I do not intend to go into any more detail.

    Reloading if performed correctly is safe, BUT, there are big risks for the inexperienced, you are clearly very inexperienced. There are very high pressures involved, and very dangerous repercussions of getting it wrong, possibly fatal.

    The NRA report they have seen several serious injuries in 2022 from reloading accidents, and they are considering and will likely be putting in mandatory requirements on reloaded ammo using Bisley and any MoD range.

    The questions you are asking, raise serious concerns, and leads me to suggest that before you load any thing at all, that you get proven expert advice, face to face. I suggest you contact the NRA, and get on a NRA reloading course, or as a minimum any reloading course, and get advice from a proven expert.

    As a bare minimum get a good book on the subject, and read it cover to cover, to at least understand the requirements, and the risks of getting it wrong, not only to you, but innocent bystanders, then get on a course.

    The internet is not the place for you to start getting advice.

    Take care, and Have Fun
    Robin
    Walther KK500 Alutec expert special - Barnard .223 "wilde" in a Walther KK500 Alutec stock, mmm...tasty!! - Keppeler 6 mmBR with Walther grip and wood! I may be a Walther-phile?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinC View Post
    First, to answer the simple query, you match the bullet to the barrel, 1 in 8 twist is ideal for 60 to 80 gn bullets.

    The COAL length is specific to the bullet, and the barrel free bore, (i.e where it touches), and is specifically importantly to the load, get it wrong, and you have high pressures!

    The wife and I shoot at top level, and shoot Internationally at 300 mts, and load our own ammo (6mmBR and .223) to the highest standards, capable of world level scores at 300 mts, with .223 using 80 gns bullets in a 1 in 8 twist. I do not intend to go into any more detail.

    Reloading if performed correctly is safe, BUT, there are big risks for the inexperienced, you are clearly very inexperienced. There are very high pressures involved, and very dangerous repercussions of getting it wrong, possibly fatal.

    The NRA report they have seen several serious injuries in 2022 from reloading accidents, and they are considering and will likely be putting in mandatory requirements on reloaded ammo using Bisley and any MoD range.

    The questions you are asking, raise serious concerns, and leads me to suggest that before you load any thing at all, that you get proven expert advice, face to face. I suggest you contact the NRA, and get on a NRA reloading course, or as a minimum any reloading course, and get advice from a proven expert.

    As a bare minimum get a good book on the subject, and read it cover to cover, to at least understand the requirements, and the risks of getting it wrong, not only to you, but innocent bystanders, then get on a course.

    The internet is not the place for you to start getting advice.

    Take care, and Have Fun
    Robin
    Thankyou Robin. I have my well thumbed "Modern reloading" book, but unfortunately, in the world of Richard Lee, Vectan powders simply don't exist! Conversely, on the Vectan loading data, the 50 and 62 grain bullets I have don't exist!?
    I have found COL data for the 62 grain on the Hornady website, still struggling to find the same for Winchester 50 grain PSP. I am heading to the gun shop/range/reloading centre later this week and am going to spend time there with their data and load records for the same calibre/powder/bullets. I have also gained information from club members at the range where I am a member.

    I have been reloading for handguns for a few years now, it really is childsplay compared to this!

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    Quote Originally Posted by RobinC View Post
    First, to answer the simple query, you match the bullet to the barrel, 1 in 8 twist is ideal for 60 to 80 gn bullets.

    The COAL length is specific to the bullet, and the barrel free bore, (i.e where it touches), and is specifically importantly to the load, get it wrong, and you have high pressures!

    The wife and I shoot at top level, and shoot Internationally at 300 mts, and load our own ammo (6mmBR and .223) to the highest standards, capable of world level scores at 300 mts, with .223 using 80 gns bullets in a 1 in 8 twist. I do not intend to go into any more detail.

    Reloading if performed correctly is safe, BUT, there are big risks for the inexperienced, you are clearly very inexperienced. There are very high pressures involved, and very dangerous repercussions of getting it wrong, possibly fatal.

    The NRA report they have seen several serious injuries in 2022 from reloading accidents, and they are considering and will likely be putting in mandatory requirements on reloaded ammo using Bisley and any MoD range.

    The questions you are asking, raise serious concerns, and leads me to suggest that before you load any thing at all, that you get proven expert advice, face to face. I suggest you contact the NRA, and get on a NRA reloading course, or as a minimum any reloading course, and get advice from a proven expert.

    As a bare minimum get a good book on the subject, and read it cover to cover, to at least understand the requirements, and the risks of getting it wrong, not only to you, but innocent bystanders, then get on a course.

    The internet is not the place for you to start getting advice.

    Take care, and Have Fun
    Robin
    Excellent post Robin and full of good info and suggestions.

    I shoot around 7 or 8 thousand reloaded rifle rounds annually, more than half being .223 but also 6.5CM and .308. The vast majority of fellow competitors are reloaders too. I have witnessed several potentially serious accidents in the last year due to negligence on the part of reloaders. Without trying to patronise anyone, please be very, very careful and take credible advice as suggested by Robin. Some 'mate's advice' can be downright dangerous.

    The most recent incident was during a major competition, pressure on and the shooter fired and was about to chamber another round but the guy behind shouted 'Stop, stop stop'. He (guy behind, unlike the shooter) had realised that it was a squid round, in this case, no powder and it was only the primer that had detonated which dislodged the bullet from the case's neck tension and propelled it some distance up the barrel. The ejected case looked normal but the rifle was in a very dangerous state with a barrel that was blocked.
    I believe that in Jun 2021 a similar incident happened on Century and the new target rifle failed destroying the rifle although thankfully, with no serious injury. This incident may have one of those that contributed to the NRA/MOD's recent comments on reloading safety.

    These situations happen when people get distracted during the reloading process. And as someone who has reloaded several hundred rounds over the weekend, I know only too well how mind numbingly boring the process can be and how critical it is to develop a systemic routine that leaves no (minimal) margin for error.

    Keep safe and have fun.

  11. #41
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    Thankfully a shorter COL only reduces pressure in a necked case, rather than the increase I'm used to. Todays testing showed a best 50 grain group of 42mm, and 62 grain of 36mm. A little more on the COL should improve things, and a trigger with a less than 8lb weight has to help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDuncs View Post
    Excellent post Robin and full of good info and suggestions.

    I shoot around 7 or 8 thousand reloaded rifle rounds annually, more than half being .223 but also 6.5CM and .308. The vast majority of fellow competitors are reloaders too. I have witnessed several potentially serious accidents in the last year due to negligence on the part of reloaders. Without trying to patronise anyone, please be very, very careful and take credible advice as suggested by Robin. Some 'mate's advice' can be downright dangerous.

    The most recent incident was during a major competition, pressure on and the shooter fired and was about to chamber another round but the guy behind shouted 'Stop, stop stop'. He (guy behind, unlike the shooter) had realised that it was a squid round, in this case, no powder and it was only the primer that had detonated which dislodged the bullet from the case's neck tension and propelled it some distance up the barrel. The ejected case looked normal but the rifle was in a very dangerous state with a barrel that was blocked.
    I believe that in Jun 2021 a similar incident happened on Century and the new target rifle failed destroying the rifle although thankfully, with no serious injury. This incident may have one of those that contributed to the NRA/MOD's recent comments on reloading safety.

    These situations happen when people get distracted during the reloading process. And as someone who has reloaded several hundred rounds over the weekend, I know only too well how mind numbingly boring the process can be and how critical it is to develop a systemic routine that leaves no (minimal) margin for error.

    Keep safe and have fun.
    Exactly the reason I always wear eye protection. You never know what is in the chamber of the rifle next to you.
    It's all forgotten now, but Rockers and Mods only started fighting as the Rockers were annoyed at having some of their comments removed

  13. #43
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    More specifically weighed rounds made today with varying COL's. I will probably wait until the new trigger springs arrive before testing this time as I think I've reached the limit of accuracy with something so heavy

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinbum View Post
    Thankfully a shorter COL only reduces pressure in a necked case, rather than the increase I'm used to. Todays testing showed a best 50 grain group of 42mm, and 62 grain of 36mm. A little more on the COL should improve things, and a trigger with a less than 8lb weight has to help!

    You've put the cart before the horse .

    Firstly , regardless of how a case is sized , a reduction in c.o.l will cause a reduction in case capacity and an increase in pressure , not a decrease .

    If you're trigger is so heavy as to affect your ability to shoot accurately, how can you trust your results . I suggest you sort the trigger then start again.

    I'm not sure why , but you appear to be in an awful hurry . You say you're new to reloading and then have jumped in feet first .

    If you're intent on doing seating tests , find the lands first , modern thinking suggests seating 0.020 " from the lands when doing initial development of charge weights . Though , magazine length may be a limiting factor as may bullet length if there is to be sufficient in the case neck . Then after charge weight tests do your seating tests .

    My suggestion would be to use the bullet manufacturers recommended c.o.l .

    You may struggle to get out to 800 metres as it's doubtful that a 16" barrel will give sufficient velocity for the bullet to remain super sonic at that distance .

    Good luck , I hope you achieve the results you're looking for .

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fox Tales View Post

    1: If you're trigger is so heavy as to affect your ability to shoot accurately, how can you trust your results . I suggest you sort the trigger then start again.

    I'm not sure why , but you appear to be in an awful hurry . You say you're new to reloading and then have jumped in feet first .
    1: See my last post dated the 10th

    2: I'm not new to reloading, just .223

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