Is a ProSport a copy of a Venom Mach 2?

[nurek]

This topic has been covered here a few times, but with no back up, only opinions of various people, some calling themselves experts. I am no expert, but I had access to a few pictures, and I can use a calendar to reference some dates.

This was previously covered in the following threads:

http://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread....a-Venom-Mach-2
https://www.airgunbbs.com/showthread...-Trigger-Units

Well, the ProSport has been called the nicest looking production spring airgun of all time, it was designed by Ken Turner, however many like to claim that it was a copy of the Venom Mach 2 design…

I thought I post here, as I have posted on another forum with some pictures and dates to back this up, also what prompted me was a post by Professor Mike Wright (RIP), who used to write springer articles with Jim Tyler BTDT on here, and lets say he knew a thing or 2 about spring guns and their history:

'History does get distorted over time, but rarely totally inverted', Arthur Miller
'All the right notes, but not necessarily in the right order' , Eric Morecambe

Back to the topic, Ken Turner made his own concealed underlever in 1982, named it the KT82 as shown below (the number, after KT indicates year of production):





Some of its features, including delrin pegs (Lazaglide, yes, Lazaglide!) are described in this article below (so who invented the Lazaglide and when? &#128521:



This of course is the prototype of the ProSport, that many would like to think is a copy of the Mach 2, however, I don't think Venom made any gun in 1982, let alone a Mach 2? In fact, I think they only started work in 1981 as Venom Conversions, Trapshot, Lye, working purely on tuning Weihrauchs, not making any guns of their own. The Mach 2 didn’t appear until 1989, so this prototype predates the Mach 2 by 7 years. I believe that Ken Turner did work with Venom in the early years and did a lot of machining for them as he was an expert machinist, I guess the Venom team didn't machine their own parts, as why send machining to the South of UK with Venom being based in the Midlands? Was it cheaper? Like sending stuff to India or China now? I don’t think so.

Now while we are on this subject, let’s look at the famous Venom Mach 1. Again, Ken Turner made his prototype in 1985, named it the KT85. Note the under-barrel catch like on the Mach 1. The Mach 1 appeared in 1987 I believe, so the KT85 predated it by 2 years.





Most of Ken Turner’s guns are 'in the white' as they were made from stainless steel, which of course doesn't rust easily, but is very difficult to machine, compared to mild steel. I remember asking Shaun from ISP about making a gun out of Stainless, he said he did it once and will never do it again, as it was too difficult to machine!

Ken Turner was a quiet man, his work wasn’t advertised much and he and didn’t get the recognition he deserved in the airgun world, unlike others who claimed they have invented everything.

What I also thought was interesting, is that when Ken Turner and Venom team parted company, around 1989 (I believe, as I don’t know this for sure) the Mach 1, Mach 2 and Mach 1 trigger unit production has stopped. Surely, Venom could make them themselves, or find another competent machine shop, or could they? Many will say that the guns were too expensive to manufacture etc etc but I believe that unfinished rifles exist, but there is no one to finish them. Considering these guns sell for crazy amounts of money, it would have made sense to get them finished and sold.

So, is a ProSport a copy of a Venom Mach 2? I guess it is, as both were made and designed by Ken Turner.

[Murphy]

Or did they all copy the Airsporter.

[nurek]

Or did they all copy the Airsporter.

Very fair point! But ProSport being a copy of the Mach 2 sounds so much better

If you look at the article, Ken Turner talks about conical piston head which if course is a feature on the AirSporter

[Mach 1.5]

Not this old chestnut again!!! If you join the venom facebook page you may get your answer direct from the horses mouth by asking Ivan himself as he does have a look in now and again and have a giggle about all the BS surrounding his and Dave's stuff. Mach 1.5

[nurek]

Not this old chestnut again!!! If you join the venom facebook page you may get your answer direct from the horses mouth by asking Ivan himself as he does have a look in now and again and have a giggle about all the BS surrounding his and Dave's stuff. Mach 1.5

I don't do FB, also it would be very one sided as Ken and Dave are no longer with us. I have also heard that Ivan doesn't like it when Ken's name gets mentioned

The evidence speaks for itself I think, as otherwise it's only words, hang on, that's the Bee Gees, or did I just invent that

[Garvin]

The Mach 2 underlever looks very like the Pro Sport's, so there must have been inspiration taken at very least, if not outright copying.

[Mach 1.5]

So why open up a topic to get our opinions when the people you should be asking aren't around. We are no experts so all our comments will be just if, buts and maybes. I would ask Ivan but like you say its only his view. Mach 1.5

[maximus]

Well it is similar to a pro sport but to my eye the PS is better looking! Ill get my coat!

[nurek]

So why open up a topic to get our opinions when the people you should be asking aren't around. We are no experts so all our comments will be just if, buts and maybes. I would ask Ivan but like you say its only his view. Mach 1.5

I am interested in opinions backed up by facts/evidence. I've shown what information I had available, pictures and dates, if you disagree because you have an article from say Airgunworld stating that Venom made their Mach 2 in 1981 I'll bow my head in shame and withdraw all.

I have seen and shot 7 Ken Turner rifles, all machined and assembled by Ken Turner. I have seen photos of further 6. If you have ever seen or shot a rifle made by Ivan Hancock before anything that Ken Turner has made, please post pictures here. I'd really love to see them!

All previous topics were based on opinions, I wanted to back my opinion with whatever evidence I had, that's all.

Ask Mr Hancock, by all means,. maybe he'll show you something you can share here.

[Mach 1.5]

You know very well I know more information than just an article from airgun world or Airgunner so I'll leave it at that. In the mean time back to the thread. Ken copied the Airsporter Mk1 and AA copied the Mach 2. Mach 1.5

[where's it gone]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and behold, there are many of us. The Prosport is a fine rifle but, it need a makeover, and finishing off better, that hideous underlever, which nowadays would cost. the person who signed off this rifle before production must of had a speck of dust in his eye and thought the alloy underlever made a nice contrast!

[HW777]

Not this old chestnut again!!! If you join the venom facebook page you may get your answer direct from the horses mouth by asking Ivan himself as he does have a look in now and again and have a giggle about all the BS surrounding his and Dave's stuff. Mach 1.5

What is the title of the Venom FB page Mach ? All I get when I put the Venom name in a search, is a heavy metal band

[Mach 1.5]

Venom Arms - VMach Facebook I think it is. Just looking at my paper work. I see Ivan went to D J Bennett Engineering where KT was employed in Sept 85 with there prototype work of the Mach 1. Early 86 Bennett & Turner visited venom to discuss various aspests of design etc. I'm surprised KT didn't kick up a fuss and say, you've copied my rifle!!! Mach 1.5

[splosh!]

What is the title of the Venom FB page Mach ? All I get when I put the Venom name in a search, is a heavy metal band

Hear you go https://www.facebook.com/groups/514984415696511

[nurek]

Venom Arms - VMach Facebook I think it is. Just looking at my paper work. I see Ivan went to D J Bennett Engineering where KT was employed in Sept 85 with there prototype work of the Mach 1. Early 86 Bennett & Turner visited venom to discuss various aspests of design etc. I'm surprised KT didn't kick up a fuss and say, you've copied my rifle!!! Mach 1.5

These dates you quote prove my point that Ken Turner made several rifles, well before Venom, making his first gun in 1981 as per the article in my original post, and the Mach 2 prototype in 1982 and Mach 1 prototype in 1985.

It is not secret Ken that worked for DJ Bennett Engineering, in fact he worked there pretty much up until he died last year. Venom have used him as he was a great machinist, he made parts for others too, including trigger parts for Whiscombes.

The article below from July 1988 Airgunner pretty much spells it out, he co-designed the Mach 1 as stated in the introduction, and the bottom paragraph states he worked for Bennett Engineering:



From what I know, he was a shy man and I guess he didn't want the confrontation. Also I believe that when they parted ways, around 89, no more brass triggers, Mach 1 or 2 guns were made. Why would that be? How can that be explained? My guess is because they had no one who could do it. I believe that Mr Hancock still has several unfinished triggers and Mach 2 actions, they could be finished and sold on for a lot of money. I know when Mr Whiscombe finished making his guns, he had absolutely no spares and all his guns were completed and sold.

We could reverse the question though, why didn't Venom (especially when backed by Webley money in 2000s) didn't kick up a fuss or sue Air Arms for copying their design? After all both companies are UK based, and the 'copies' were not made in India or China.