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Thread: .20 calibre

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    The biggest issue is that so few manufacturers now offer .20, Theoben were major supporters, AA have never made one, HW they're special order & take forever to be delivered,
    so the majority of shooters will never be able to even try it, to understand how good it really is

    For Hunting at sub 12 it is the ultimate calibre, surface area & weight just happen to be spot on for the power level, so it's very efficient with air use,
    it has a better BC than either .177/.22, retains a higher % of initial energy at range than either .177/.22, transfers a higher % of that energy to the target than .177/.22.

    Lots of people make a big thing about pellet choice, but there are probably a dozen or so, it's just that every barrel seems to be single hole accurate with either FTT or JSB so why do you need anything else ?

    Finally of course when you've got 'fingers like pigs tits' the pellets are that little bit easier to load
    At last…… someone who talks sense 👍

  2. #32
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    I used to favour 177, but had too many squirrels and magpies with their brains hanging out, not dead. That's not bad shot placement is it ?

    Never happened once with 20 cal, when I converted after my extensive field trials over three years of cross species , cross environment actual shooting.

    Shoot through IS real with 177 (not enough energy left in quarry), 20 may not be much bigger, but apparently sufficiently bigger _

    I shoot 22 and 177 too, but 20 is Best IMO for All Round Hunting use as it's bigger than 177, shoots nicer in springers, kills stuff without 'shoot through' not killing stuff, doesn't have loop of 22

    If going after one specific quarry, in one environment _sure go for the ideal set up.

    20 will do a better job All Round.

    It's like arguing if front or rear drive cars are best, and then comparing with a 4x4, which can go anywhere 'really well' ....
    Looking for TO-6 Trigger unit unmessed with or T0-6 kit for 34

  3. #33
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    Only if you can hit what your aiming at, accuracy over power for me
    bigtoe, Harry, hydroclamp, jpsnorton, gayle89, mark410, Stu83, smallholder1, wellhouse0, readingcop, sir-slots-alot, danco1987, Stevenb, DarylDiane, simpleSimon, Ratinator, Milek, Josh, Maxtich, Woodsie99, Ozzie, master_shriller, niloc, Drake267, deejayuu, shootingstars

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by 32:1 View Post
    Only if you can hit what your aiming at, accuracy over power for me
    This in heaps.

    The only thing that matters with sub 12ft/lbs rifles is shot placement.
    At these power levels then there is little if no hydraulic trauma effect, so it is the equivalent of delivering .177, .20, .22, and .25 calibre stiletto needles. At the longer ranges the .22 and above can plug in pigeon feathers. Thankfully, non of the usual quarry have thick skin or bone, but the vital areas are small. Which is why shot placement is everything. As .177 generally has higher velocity and flies flatter then most people find hitting small targets at varying distances easier/higher probability.

    Unless you just happen to have a nat driving .20 with a pellet that is easy to get, then it is all academic. Just an excuse to have another rifle to play with. Effective range is always what you can hit a polo mint at with a very high probability. A poor shooting .20 might be OK to 20m, and a tack driver out to 35. The limiting factor then is can you match its drop to your range finding? Can you equal that judgement as well as a .177? Most people can't. Most people find .177 hard enough. Most people without a lot of application and practice shouldn't really shoot further than farmyard ranges. I shoot to farmyard ranges as that is my ability with the kind of rifles I enjoy using, and time I put to it all, as all the calibres are easy enough to master with drop and raw accuracy.

    Any advantage a .20 has on paper over any other calibre is lost in shot placement probability.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    This in heaps.

    The only thing that matters with sub 12ft/lbs rifles is shot placement.
    I agree, which is why if you are shooting as 12 FP springer, you need to use .20

    .177 generates too much recoil and hold sensitivity in hunting-weight springers, and are you really going to be shooting over 35 yards in field conditions, which is where .177 just begins to have a trajectory advantage ?
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    The only thing that matters with sub 12ft/lbs rifles is shot placement.
    I ended 23 Pigeons today with a .177.
    The have not asked for a refund.
    2 Maggies didnt ask either.

  7. #37
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    .20

    .20 users are like Jehovah's Witnesses... lol
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" -- Benjamin Franklin

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    This in heaps.

    The only thing that matters with sub 12ft/lbs rifles is shot placement.
    At these power levels then there is little if no hydraulic trauma effect, so it is the equivalent of delivering .177, .20, .22, and .25 calibre stiletto needles. At the longer ranges the .22 and above can plug in pigeon feathers. Thankfully, non of the usual quarry have thick skin or bone, but the vital areas are small. Which is why shot placement is everything. As .177 generally has higher velocity and flies flatter then most people find hitting small targets at varying distances easier/higher probability.

    Unless you just happen to have a nat driving .20 with a pellet that is easy to get, then it is all academic. Just an excuse to have another rifle to play with. Effective range is always what you can hit a polo mint at with a very high probability. A poor shooting .20 might be OK to 20m, and a tack driver out to 35. The limiting factor then is can you match its drop to your range finding? Can you equal that judgement as well as a .177? Most people can't. Most people find .177 hard enough. Most people without a lot of application and practice shouldn't really shoot further than farmyard ranges. I shoot to farmyard ranges as that is my ability with the kind of rifles I enjoy using, and time I put to it all, as all the calibres are easy enough to master with drop and raw accuracy.

    Any advantage a .20 has on paper over any other calibre is lost in shot placement probability.
    Well I'd argue about "hydraulic trauma effect", while nowhere near what a rimfire does it's there if you look.
    Yes the vital area is small, so the last thing you want is a small dia pellet that passes through at speed, wasting most of the little energy it carries,
    Easier/higher probability of missing the vital area but still hitting somewhere you mean.
    .20 pellets are as easy to get as any other,
    Not sure of what the definition of gnat driving is in mm, or what Farmyard ranges are in yds,
    As for the ranges for a poor shooting / tack driving anything, if it's poor shooting WTF are you doing using it in the first place?
    likewise without application & practice you should not be shooting at prey full stop,
    More like any advantage .177 has is lost in shot placement, because in the field the 'human error' aspect is what's going to decide the hit or miss, not 1.5" less drop at 45yds on paper.

    But I do agree all the calibres can be mastered once you know all the data, trouble is people who rely on the fact it's flat & fast, means they don't bother to learn it.

  9. #39
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    Gnat driving, is any rifle that can hit tiny tiny gnat sized targets. Gnat often used in marksmanship training where an imaginary gnat is placed on a target; shoot at the gnat, not the animal.
    Farmyard ranges are anything below 25m or 25yards, what you might find hunting around farm buildings and surrounding areas. Basically not very far, and most even able with iron sights.
    Beyond 25m then the kit and marksmanship level really is exponential in difficulty.
    Anyhow, the range is dependent on the conditions of the day, though at Farmyard ranges conditions aren't as dramatic. Further then even the mildest of wind has to be factored in.

    Beyond 15m then:
    Hydraulic shock at these energies really is minimal, miniscule. It cannot be relied on to correct any shot placement error.
    Energy transfer isn't of a dramatic enough level either, and all the larger critters taken on can shrug off such energy.
    The only thing that matters is the "slightly enlarged" stiletto wound tract through a vital. That the tract passes straight through or not makes little difference in instant results. A .177 is massive damage to a small brain or heart that normal air gun quarry has.
    Why only shot placement through a vital matters.

    Projectiles with more energy then everything changes.

    Again, how easy is it to find a .20 ammo that delivers exceptional accuracy from any barrel? As I said you might be lucky, or not. There isn't the choice of ammo to try as with other calibres.

    Buy one, have fun with one, but don't pretend "it's better".

  10. #40
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    H&N made just about all the .20 pellet designs, do they still hold the moulds

    Limited QC batch runs would have .20 shooters reaching for their wallets of these discounted pellet designs.

    At the end of the day .20 given a choice of pellets could make a come back, as it suits our sub 12 fpe limit.
    Hw77+7

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    Gnat driving, is any rifle that can hit tiny tiny gnat sized targets. Gnat often used in marksmanship training where an imaginary gnat is placed on a target; shoot at the gnat, not the animal.
    Farmyard ranges are anything below 25m or 25yards, what you might find hunting around farm buildings and surrounding areas. Basically not very far, and most even able with iron sights.
    Beyond 25m then the kit and marksmanship level really is exponential in difficulty.
    Anyhow, the range is dependent on the conditions of the day, though at Farmyard ranges conditions aren't as dramatic. Further then even the mildest of wind has to be factored in.

    Beyond 15m then:
    Hydraulic shock at these energies really is minimal, miniscule. It cannot be relied on to correct any shot placement error.
    Energy transfer isn't of a dramatic enough level either, and all the larger critters taken on can shrug off such energy.
    The only thing that matters is the "slightly enlarged" stiletto wound tract through a vital. That the tract passes straight through or not makes little difference in instant results. A .177 is massive damage to a small brain or heart that normal air gun quarry has.
    Why only shot placement through a vital matters.

    Projectiles with more energy then everything changes.

    Again, how easy is it to find a .20 ammo that delivers exceptional accuracy from any barrel? As I said you might be lucky, or not. There isn't the choice of ammo to try as with other calibres.

    Buy one, have fun with one, but don't pretend "it's better".
    So does a mag of 12 shots in to a ragged single hole between 5p -1p size (25yds) count as gnat driving ?
    because all 3 of my .20 barrels will do that rapid fire
    Ftt will do it in one barrel, JSB exact & predator polymag will do it in the others , although polymags do take longer as they need single loading to avoid damaging the tip.

    I have no need to 'pretend' anything

  12. #42
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    So you have three sorted .20 calibre rifles that will gnat drive to the furthest range usually found around a farmyard? Great, what a lot of fun.
    Is your range finding ability as spot on to 1/4 of a metre between 25 and 35m? Your wind judgement spot on too? If not both exceptional then you would be better served with the more forgiving .177. Or don't shoot beyond farmyard ranges.
    Non of the calibers have the energy to compensate for poor shot placement.
    That you have got three .20 sorted, doesn't mean everyone else is going to find it easy too.

    I generally only shoot to farmyard ranges with 12ft/lbs air rifles as it is not too difficult to get the level of accuracy with the rifles I like to shoot without real application. Been doing it long enough and polo mints live in fear.
    Now if I owned a PCP, and wanted to shoot further it would be a .177, put the practice in, and maybe either a range finding scope or laser rangefinder. More like I do with my powder burners.
    (My powder burners shoot at energies, velocities, and with bullet construction, that produces colossal damage that has little comparison to their actual size.)

  13. #43
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    Of course if the "lead ban" bomb ever goes off, that could well change the calibre equation.

    It's probably too early to say, but judging by the lead-free stuff around today, .177 calibre might not look as good as it does now

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    So you have three sorted .20 calibre rifles that will gnat drive to the furthest range usually found around a farmyard? Great, what a lot of fun.
    Is your range finding ability as spot on to 1/4 of a metre between 25 and 35m? Your wind judgement spot on too? If not both exceptional then you would be better served with the more forgiving .177. Or don't shoot beyond farmyard ranges.

    Sorry, that's bull. The trajectory difference between .20 and .177 when both zero'd at 30 yards is negligible out to 35 yards. No-one is capable or needs to rangefind to 25cms, and .177 is no magic cure if you can't.

    Also, a decent .20 like the JSB will drift less in the wind that most .177 pellets - except the JSB heavy, which isn't well suited to springers. And the JSB heavy weighs the same as the most popular .20 pellet.
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  15. #45
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    GREAT to see 20 cal back on top, Where It Belongs
    Looking for TO-6 Trigger unit unmessed with or T0-6 kit for 34

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