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Thread: .20 calibre

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    Sorry, that's bull. The trajectory difference between .20 and .177 when both zero'd at 30 yards is negligible out to 35 yards. No-one is capable or needs to rangefind to 25cms, and .177 is no magic cure if you can't.

    Also, a decent .20 like the JSB will drift less in the wind that most .177 pellets - except the JSB heavy, which isn't well suited to springers. And the JSB heavy weighs the same as the most popular .20 pellet.

    I agree .177 is no magic cure.
    If a Polo mint is the kill zone, what is the difference and optimum "point blank" for the two calibres? You may take the .20 having an additional 4mm of destructive "stiletto" track, but use normal expected pellet weights in your calculations. Polo mint 2cm?
    Answer that, and then tell the FT and HFT boys they have it all wrong for they are trying to range find to a quarter of a meter. And they aren't even going for Polo Mints.
    I'm not doubting those that put the time and effort in can't get satisfactory results with a .20. I'm not suggesting not getting a .20 for the fun of another set of issues to sort out. To me shot placement into a vital is all that matters, taking account of the conditions of the day.
    Last edited by Muskett; 26-11-2023 at 12:19 AM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    I agree .177 is no magic cure.
    If a Polo mint is the kill zone, what is the difference and optimum "point blank" for the two calibres? You may take the .20 having an additional 4mm of destructive "stiletto" track, but use normal expected pellet weights in your calculations. Polo mint 2cm?
    Answer that, and then tell the FT and HFT boys they have it all wrong for they are trying to range find to a quarter of a meter. And they aren't even going for Polo Mints.
    I'm not doubting those that put the time and effort in can't get satisfactory results with a .20. I'm not suggesting not getting a .20 for the fun of another set of issues to sort out. To me shot placement into a vital is all that matters, taking account of the conditions of the day.
    no my argument has nothing to do with "wound channel".. I agree that's not a big factor, and that shot placement is.

    I shot HFT at a rather more competative level than most on here, and certaily agree that at those 45 yard ranges it's no contest in favour of .177. FT is different, out to 55 yards, but I seriously doubt they can rangefind to 25 cms in the 45-55 yard range, but as that range is not relevant to hunting it doesn't really matter. My argument is apparently more nuanced.. soI'll say it again:

    In hunting springers, out to 35 yards (which I consider a realistic max in hunting/field conditions with a spring sub 12fp rifle), .20 gives better acheivable accuracy (not worse), because it significantly reduces the recoil and therefore hold sensitivity in these conditions. when zeroed at 30 yards, the trajectory differnce out to 35 yards is minisclue. Additionally, it has a slight advantage in the wind.

    I'll do a couple of chair gun graphs when I get a moment to show you.
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post

    I shot HFT at a rather more competative level than most on here,
    There will be many here who aren't aware of your spring gun achievements, so don't be too modest to remind them when it helps them to judge the credibility of your arguments. It's certainly made me think differently about .20 springers.

  4. #49
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    I, for one, don't know his achievements and am genuinely interested in this.
    A good 20 is, in my opinion, just perfect at sub 12 and that was in pcp. But as stated already, I was worried about the ammo supply as our UK attitude seems, largely at least, to be it's either 177 or 22.

  5. #50
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    I must take my .20 Sirocco 2000 to the range one day and see how it performs, I've never hunted with .20 so can't comment on that side of things, I used to do fine with my .177 Prosport for hunting, as I'm now a collector/tinkerer/range plinker, the only reason I picked up the .20 Sirocco, was because I wanted a rammer and a .20 cal in my collection and that ticked two boxes at once.

    Like already said, the ammo choice might be a problem but I was told at the time that there was only two choices of pellets that would go through my Sirocco, JSBs or FTTs, the FTTs where better accuracy wise.
    Far too many rifles to list now, all mainly British but the odd pesky foreigner has snuck in

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by look no hands View Post
    I must take my .20 Sirocco 2000 to the range one day and see how it performs, I've never hunted with .20 so can't comment on that side of things, I used to do fine with my .177 Prosport for hunting, as I'm now a collector/tinkerer/range plinker, the only reason I picked up the .20 Sirocco, was because I wanted a rammer and a .20 cal in my collection and that ticked two boxes at once.

    Like already said, the ammo choice might be a problem but I was told at the time that there was only two choices of pellets that would go through my Sirocco, JSBs or FTTs, the FTTs where better accuracy wise.
    Often over looked, there are H&N Baracuda .20 which is a bis mag shape, you can get them from JSRamsbottom.

    A few golden oldies .20 pellets that have popped up on flea b.

    I would like to see these pellets shapes put back into production and semi wad cutters @ 10 grains.
    Hw77+7

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    So you have three sorted .20 calibre rifles that will gnat drive to the furthest range usually found around a farmyard? Great, what a lot of fun.
    Is your range finding ability as spot on to 1/4 of a metre between 25 and 35m? Your wind judgement spot on too? If not both exceptional then you would be better served with the more forgiving .177. Or don't shoot beyond farmyard ranges.
    Non of the calibers have the energy to compensate for poor shot placement.
    That you have got three .20 sorted, doesn't mean everyone else is going to find it easy too.

    I generally only shoot to farmyard ranges with 12ft/lbs air rifles as it is not too difficult to get the level of accuracy with the rifles I like to shoot without real application. Been doing it long enough and polo mints live in fear.
    Now if I owned a PCP, and wanted to shoot further it would be a .177, put the practice in, and maybe either a range finding scope or laser rangefinder. More like I do with my powder burners.
    (My powder burners shoot at energies, velocities, and with bullet construction, that produces colossal damage that has little comparison to their actual size.)
    I try not to shoot sub 12 beyond PBR ranges, beyond that the RF or CF come out.

    32:1 on this thread is the first person I have ever heard say their .20 is not single hole accurate, which is one of the reasons I rate it.

  8. #53
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    My 20 cals have been the easiest to one hole with as they all shoot FTT's

    I did have an old Original and a Theoben that preferred JSB.

    I also found that the old discontinued H&N Silhouette shot super well, and more efficiently than newer pellets !

    Like the barracuda light / FT varieties in 177, the 20 cal H&N (pcp friendly) Barracuda also shoots extremely tight in just about any 20 barrel ...

    I've had had far more pellet fussy 22 HW's , and BSA 177 barrels can take an age to pellet match _
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    The biggest issue is that so few manufacturers now offer .20, Theoben were major supporters, AA have never made one, HW they're special order & take forever to be delivered,
    so the majority of shooters will never be able to even try it, to understand how good it really is

    For Hunting at sub 12 it is the ultimate calibre, surface area & weight just happen to be spot on for the power level, so it's very efficient with air use,
    it has a better BC than either .177/.22, retains a higher % of initial energy at range than either .177/.22, transfers a higher % of that energy to the target than .177/.22.

    Lots of people make a big thing about pellet choice, but there are probably a dozen or so, it's just that every barrel seems to be single hole accurate with either FTT or JSB so why do you need anything else ?

    Finally of course when you've got 'fingers like pigs tits' the pellets are that little bit easier to load
    Spot on. It is the perfect hunting calibre. Not sure why it seems to piss some people offÖ.?

  10. #55
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    Theoben did loads of videos and articles explain why at UK power 20 cal was so great

    Everyone hero worships ben Taylor on here _ well he said 20 cal rocked

    They chose to make their rifles in 20 cal, because it rocks, they could have just not done that, they absolutely not just believed in it, but Evidenced It !! At Length !! Many Times !!
    Looking for TO-6 Trigger unit unmessed with or T0-6 kit for 34

  11. #56
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    I admit to being a .177 fan boy. Of the 30 odd 80's springers I've owned not many would I consider able enough for shooting beyond farmyard ranges. A few like the HW77, or well fettled custom tuned, often can. A good few people have the Air Arms TXs doing so.
    The big issue with most springers is the first shot reliability to hit spot on, as most are too hold sensitive; well something! Keep to farmyard ranges and many more can do polo mint. Even out to 25m there is enough to practice and become familiar with.
    Like angrybear, beyond farmyard I revert to .22LR and .17HMR.

    The cry has been for a while: "pellet selection", well find one that compliments the combo. The list of .20 pellets is short, and even shorter at your local gun shop.

    Interestingly, the last big import batch of the Original 45 were in .20. They took years to clear. They were discounted heavily, and I would have bought one but for the .20 pellet availability and lack of choice. The US Sheridan came in .20 too.

    I understand that .22 and .20 require less shunt than a .177 to get close to 12ft/lbs, with all that "mildness" advantage that might come from less physics going on. But all the "heavies" (HW35/80/77, AAs, Dianas,) should be tame enough???

    If someone is kind enough to churn all the numbers we all might learn a bit. Sure .22 v .177 is wide. What does .20 lose out to .177?

    I take hunting the rifles that I have well sorted and familiar with. Getting them sorted is what the zero and plinking range is for, and as its shooting a whole lot of fun too. Have a combo sorted and what calibre isn't so important, just stick to its particular capabilities.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCPShooter View Post
    Theoben did loads of videos and articles explain why at UK power 20 cal was so great

    Everyone hero worships ben Taylor on here _ well he said 20 cal rocked

    They chose to make their rifles in 20 cal, because it rocks, they could have just not done that, they absolutely not just believed in it, but Evidenced It !! At Length !! Many Times !!
    I don't doubt what you say.
    Theoben went bust.
    Gun shops still sell shed loads of .22 rifles because many still think air rifles aren't much cop outside the farmyard. Oh how things have moved forward.
    Bottom line is the .20 struggles in the market place. Every few years someone tries to get a bit of traction and for the calibre to pick up. It never has in the UK. Shame really.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCPShooter View Post
    Theoben did loads of videos and articles explain why at UK power 20 cal was so great

    Everyone hero worships ben Taylor on here _ well he said 20 cal rocked

    They chose to make their rifles in 20 cal, because it rocks, they could have just not done that, they absolutely not just believed in it, but Evidenced It !! At Length !! Many Times !!
    Theoben published incorrect information on the performance of .20, impossible figures, it made it look like a miracle calibre and I had an online argument with Ben about it. It turned out to be a typo and Ben admitted the error when he realised that the published figures weren't what he had sent to be published. But, the damage had been done and soon everyone was waffling on about "the trajectory of .177 and the stopping power of .22" and enormous energy retention rivalling rimfires.

    Shed Tuner points out that it's sweeter to shoot from a springer, and he would know.
    Last edited by Born Again; 26-11-2023 at 10:14 PM.

  14. #59
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    A very enjoyable afternoon with my .20 Evolution at the range this afternoon. Lovely rifle to shoot when Iíve got it set up properly, today it was doing about 11.7 on the chrono. Mine seems to prefer Field Target Trophy although Iím sure the now discontinued Daystate Kaiser was a little more consistent even though it was a FTT clone. I was zeroed at 35 yards which gave me 3MD holdover to give the golf balls at 60 yards a good seeing to! I donít currently do any hunting but this would be a great tool if called upon although Iím not sure how my rifle OCD would cope with sitting in some gorse with the walnut stock and lovely Theoben blueing.
    Regards,
    Dave.

  15. #60
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    As a regular user of .20 in both spring and precharged rifles I accept that the calibre is a compromise but as has been said, when you are operating to a fixed maximum power rather thn muzzle velocity, .20 gives an excellent blend of performance which I like.
    The one issue that comes up all the time is pellet choice and availability. I must confess that I have bought sufficient for my needs for the rest of my life so it isn't a problem for me. For legal limit I generally use H & N FTT and sometimes-(always in FAC rated guns) I use the JSB 13.7 grainers. I have tried Crosman Premiers but have found it difficult to find a barrel that likes them except at the outer reaches of sub sonic FAC that is muzzle velocities of 900 ft sec and above. Even at that sort of MV I personally have found that the JSB 13.7 grainers perform as well if not better than the Premiers. However, if you wanted just one hunting tool in FAC air then you would be well advised to give the Premiers a thorough evaluation because if they are accurate in your gun they a devastating to quarry due-I am told from a good source-to the high antimony content of the lead mix which makes the Premiers particularly hard. Otherwise FTT for legal limit and JSB for FAC does it for me.
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