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Thread: Why does .177 exist?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    Unfortunately energy retained within the body is too small to have any meaningful effect. The only thing that matters is the wound tract and what that destroys.
    I had a squirrel once take five .22 pellets in the body from a Webley MKIII probably running at close to 11 ft/bls and as it was directly up a tree no more than 15m. Four of the 5 pellets found in the body when skinned out. There was enough life left in the squirrel for it to run down the tree and leap at me It landed dead at my feet.
    Rabbits are even bigger and unless heart or brain destroyed can easily take all the energy from a 12 ft/lbs rifle.
    Beyond 25m .22 can feather plug in wood pigeon, though a .22 is very effective at wing route shot at close range barn pigeon shooting.

    You say a couple of mm off perfect. Well most people can't drive a .22 a couple of mm off what they can with a flatter shooting, and better behaved .177. The real issue is are they shooting polo mint accurately enough?
    The crux for ethical air rifle shooting today is accuracy with perfect shot placement. Make a poor shot of it and bigger calibres have nothing to make up for that error, and they are just that more difficult to drop judge perfectly. Shoot perfect with any of the calibres and they should bring in the bacon.

    I actually prefer .22 for rats, but then I'm not testing the range at all. For opportune walk about then it is accuracy, and the .177. Be familiar with a good shooting .20 combo and that works fine too. PCP means anyone should be able to manage some really useful consistent accuracy.

    Add 6 to 12 ft/lbs of energy, FAC, then everything changes.
    I disagree about the energy not being meaningful, but I'm talking about head shots that are maybe just catching the edge of the brain but aren't instant kills.

    Most, but not all, rabbit head shots with my .20 using FTT's the pellet can be felt just under the skin or imbedded in the skull exit side (sorry that was gsxrman not you)

    And while .177 may be "flatter" shooting it is not "flat", it still has (according to chairgun) about 1.5" drop at 45yds (using my set up parameters), .20 is 2.75" so any shooter that can adjust for one can adjust for the other

    But yes accuracy is king & both my .20's are superbly accurate.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    I disagree about the energy not being meaningful, but I'm talking about head shots that are maybe just catching the edge of the brain but aren't instant kills.

    Most, but not all, rabbit head shots with my .20 using FTT's the pellet can be felt just under the skin or imbedded in the skull exit side (sorry that was gsxrman not you)

    And while .177 may be "flatter" shooting it is not "flat", it still has (according to chairgun) about 1.5" drop at 45yds (using my set up parameters), .20 is 2.75" so any shooter that can adjust for one can adjust for the other

    But yes accuracy is king & both my .20's are superbly accurate.
    Mr Bear, my drop at 45 is 0.66" and 1.44" at 50 using same program.
    So, a lot flatter than most think and superb in a breeze.
    The issue is determining the distance, so something looks to be 45 but is actually 48 or 41 then your POI changes massively where as mine hardly moves.
    That is the real advantage of the calibre and still penetrates the full brains and eyes at that range. Words used are "easier" or "more forgiving" but at the end of the day the .177 hits the mark more often than the other calibres on a course or out in the field, unless its pre determined fixed range like the silhouettes are set to 20,30,36 and 45 and all standing shots then larger calibres stand a chance but dont punch as tight a group as .177 therefore the calibre exists to be the best at sub 12.
    VAYA CON DIOS

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxrman View Post
    Mr Bear, my drop at 45 is 0.66" and 1.44" at 50 using same program.
    So, a lot flatter than most think and superb in a breeze.
    The issue is determining the distance, so something looks to be 45 but is actually 48 or 41 then your POI changes massively where as mine hardly moves.
    That is the real advantage of the calibre and still penetrates the full brains and eyes at that range. Words used are "easier" or "more forgiving" but at the end of the day the .177 hits the mark more often than the other calibres on a course or out in the field, unless its pre determined fixed range like the silhouettes are set to 20,30,36 and 45 and all standing shots then larger calibres stand a chance but dont punch as tight a group as .177 therefore the calibre exists to be the best at sub 12.
    Utter rubbish, any calibre can shoot as tight as any other, it's the blatant lies like that about 177 that really p**s me off.

    As for POI change, if I'm out on the range I probably miss, out on a .177 you probably still wound, personally I don't consider that an "advantage".

    Anyway it's way off the OP that I factually answered pages ago, .177 exists because that was the size pre airgun parlor shooting with Floberts had settled upon.

  4. #79
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    My first post other than my introduction....

    I personally love .177 and imo should have a place in everyone's collection.
    I own two .177 and one .22 and I teach for the .177 most of the time.
    But for over 20 years I exclusively shoot .22 and on occasion tried .177 but dismissed it.

    Then a few years ago, especially when pellet prices started going crazy I tried .177 again and now I'm a convert.
    I don't find it more accurate than other calibres I just find it, especially in PCPs nicer to shoot also bigger magazines and cheaper to put a couple of hundred of rounds through...

    It's a win win imo

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxrman View Post
    Funny thread.

    Simple... there are those that know.
    There are those that don't know.
    Then there are those that don't know that they don't know. (And they shoot .20)

    Don't worry about the why, and stick with ya oversized calibre, now that you cant see the pellet or feel them or load them properly.
    Now that you cant pull the knicker elastic back on ya catapult enough so have to use an airgun.
    Keep using your 4x only scope so it doesn't show the jelly wobble you now have, mind you now that you shoot from a stick it isn't so bad.
    Use the little toy airgun that weighs same as a bag of sugar cos a real rifle is too heavy.

    Leave the real shooting to the Woke, snowflake generation, and if they want rainbow coloured pellets that would be great, especially in the oversized calibres, as it will only help you see the pellets!!

    This perfectly sums it up.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxrman View Post
    Mr Bear, my drop at 45 is 0.66" and 1.44" at 50 using same program.
    So, a lot flatter than most think and superb in a breeze.
    I along with anothermiss have tried to replicate that claim, without success at sub 12
    Can you post a screen shot to substantiate ? Or supply the figures to input,
    I'm happy to put up one for my .20 to prove my figures.

  7. #82
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    When I used to shoot HTF, Id zero my .177 at 32 yards, and that was exactly 1 mil drop at 45 yards (= 45mm or 1.75" or 1 killzone disc). And the difference between 40 and 45 was defo missable, especially with a fraction of windage effectively also shrinking the KZ vertically, hence my hunting range limit of 40 yards in sub 12.

    With a 32 yard zero .177, you don't need to worry about holdunder in field conditions, as you are within 1/2", giving a PBR (from memory) of around 14-36 yards. But obviously if you know you are in the 22-27 yard range, a fraction of holdunder helps, and those ranges are quite easily estimated. So as AB says, it's flatter, but it is by no means flat.

    The only way to get sub 12 to have just .66" drop at 45 is to zero at 40, which gives a bunch of variable hold under in the midrange.

    Here's a .20 vs .177 graph, both setup for a nice PBR (ie not rising more that 1/2" above POA in the midrange. 1/4" difference at 35 yards (my hunting springer limit) and 1/2" at 40 (my hunting PCP limit)

    Last edited by Shed tuner; 11-12-2023 at 08:53 AM.
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  8. #83
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    [QUOTE=angrybear;8270478]Utter rubbish, any calibre can shoot as tight as any other, it's the blatant lies like that about 177 that really p**s me off.

    As for POI change, if I'm out on the range I probably miss, out on a .177 you probably still wound, personally I don't consider that an "advantage".

    I never witnessed any other calibre print as small a group as a good .177.
    Its all about the variables of the pellet.
    Consistency of the rifle is probably the same in single figures.
    Barrel quality is probably about the same although .177 probably has more development.
    So, that leaves the pellets. Everybody knows that you get variation in weight, head size, length and because of that BC.
    Percentage is about the same across all calibres apart from the super good .177 ones.
    Simply because they are larger means the print a larger group. Even if you bring it down to catapult range, and pellets could go through the same hole, .177 group is tighter.
    VAYA CON DIOS

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxrman View Post
    Simply because they are larger means the print a larger group. Even if you bring it down to catapult range, and pellets could go through the same hole, .177 group is tighter.
    lol - group sizes are measured centre-to-centre
    Always looking for any cheap, interesting, knackered "project" guns. Thanks, JB.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shed tuner View Post
    lol - group sizes are measured centre-to-centre
    That's right, but the larger the variables the larger the group. We are dealing with soft lead ammo!!
    Just trying to explain why a .22 prints larger groups.
    Then take the R&D that has gone into .177 over the other calibres, and that is why the best .177 pellets print tighter groups than larger calibres.
    VAYA CON DIOS

  11. #86
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    Of the forty odd 1980s springers I've owned in the past only 20% might have grouped tight enough to shoot beyond 25m, beyond the farmyard. Only one was a .22. Takes quite a specially good springer to hold it all together for extended ranges. Many a PCP can do it without trouble.
    25m is pretty far away when conditions on the day are taken account of. Why that is "advanced range" shooting. Just not easy, just not a given. Some serious application and practice required. Helps having a good trigger too.
    The small but significant advantages of the faster and flatter .177 really do add up. That does not mean the other calibres can't get results, but even more input is required.
    A Polo Mint is darn small.

    For any air rifle, do the practical. Zero for the point blank, and find that sweat spot where hitting that Polo Mint isn't testing shooter/combo. Then when hunting stalk to that range.
    The late John Darling I believe ended up using a .22, shot mainly rabbits, and the vast majority were taken at 20-22m. That was with a tuned HW80 or Rapid 7. He would stalk to that exact range and bag them with a brain shot. A pretty fail safe method.
    I do similar, just with a .177, and shoot a few more squirrels and magpies.

    Those with a PCP might do better. Those with rangefinding ability might do as well with other calibres. Beyond the farmyard is advanced shooting, and some days the conditions just aren't going to allow for any long shots.
    The only thing that matters is shot placement. Outside the Polo Mint is a miss, and the lager calibres don't have anything to make up for a miss.
    Last edited by Muskett; 11-12-2023 at 10:42 AM.

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