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Thread: Why does .177 exist?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtfreight View Post
    Could there be an argument for .157 (4mm) for target shooting?
    I for one would buy it! (Though within weeks we would be told that 3.8mm has a far superior trajectory)
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    Why .177

    Quote Originally Posted by tinbum View Post
    Genuine question.

    We all know a .22 makes a bigger hole which is better for hunting, it is also less susceptible to pocket damage and latent homosexuality. The .177s feeble efficiency means a significantly lower shot count in PCPs and higher recoil for any given power in proper spring powered airguns, so why is .177 so popular?

    The lack of a necessity for fieldcraft skill is an excuse in hunting, but surely target shooters should embrace the better final result of the larger pellet?

    Im not trying to start an argument, I use .20, but I sometimes look at .177 shooters and wonder if they were not loved enough as children?
    I can only suggest you ask the World's Top Class shooters, they use .177 probably because it is the Best caliber if you want consistency, accuracy and precision, they are trying to hit a 2mm target every time, hitting a rat or a rabbet does not require this degree of precession

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muskett View Post
    So the .25 never caught on for Parlor Games
    Old bellows & volute spring gallery airguns often shot .25 (6.3mm) darts and were used for after dinner parlour games in Germany in the 17-1800s.
    Apparently they were popular because at the time card gambling was illegal in Germany before 4pm, and they liked something to bet on before they moved on to cards.

    Some Bellows airguns went up to 9mm.possibly something to do with how bellows guns compress the air means a bigger bore is more efficient.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarrisK View Post
    I can only suggest you ask the World's Top Class shooters, they use .177 probably because it is the Best caliber if you want consistency, accuracy and precision, they are trying to hit a 2mm target every time, hitting a rat or a rabbet does not require this degree of precession
    They use .177 because that is what the rule book says they must use, nothing else if the rules changed they would switch and then you'd be posting the same about whatever that new cal was

    I remember reading a Pyramid Air feature about how difficult it is to bring a new calibre to the market,
    The diehards refuse to accept that the benefits warrant change and manufactures won't adopt something, on cost grounds, until they know the market exists,
    so someone has to take a punt & hope the rest follow.

    .20 is a prime example in air rifles, 17WSM a prime example in rimfire, both offer benefits in the field, but struggle (in the UK) because people will stick with what they know,
    exactly the same is happening with EV's, very few were interested 5 years ago, but because of the perceived health benefits Gov's have stepped in to force the change away from ICE's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    They use .177 because that is what the rule book says they must use, nothing else if the rules changed they would switch and then you'd be posting the same about whatever that new cal was

    I remember reading a Pyramid Air feature about how difficult it is to bring a new calibre to the market,
    The diehards refuse to accept that the benefits warrant change and manufactures won't adopt something, on cost grounds, until they know the market exists,
    so someone has to take a punt & hope the rest follow.

    .20 is a prime example in air rifles, 17WSM a prime example in rimfire, both offer benefits in the field, but struggle (in the UK) because people will stick with what they know,
    exactly the same is happening with EV's, very few were interested 5 years ago, but because of the perceived health benefits Gov's have stepped in to force the change away from ICE's.
    FT used to be open to all, so did HFT.
    Now .22 has its own category and .20 tries to compete with .177.
    When was something major won with .20... Exactly!!!!
    If it did win then its popularity would explode, but it hasn't so it wont!!!!
    Simple. Sub 12 other calibres just don't really make sense. FAC is a completely different discussion.
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    177

    They use .177 because that is what the rule book says they must use, nothing else if the rules changed they would switch and then you'd be posting the same about whatever that new cal was

    That is very true But Why did they choose .177 when other calibers were available,?

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarrisK View Post
    They use .177 because that is what the rule book says they must use, nothing else if the rules changed they would switch and then you'd be posting the same about whatever that new cal was

    That is very true But Why did they choose .177 when other calibers were available,?
    I always assumed it was due to the 12fp limit being introduced, you can fire a lighter .177 faster at legal levels meaning you get the flatter trajectory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinbum View Post
    I for one would buy it! (Though within weeks we would be told that 3.8mm has a far superior trajectory)
    Indeed, but the 4mm is the ideal calibre, it has the trajectory of the 3.8mm but hits as hard as the 4.5mm. There isn't much pellet choice though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gsxrman View Post
    FT used to be open to all, so did HFT.
    Now .22 has its own category and .20 tries to compete with .177.
    When was something major won with .20... Exactly!!!!
    If it did win then its popularity would explode, but it hasn't so it wont!!!!
    Simple. Sub 12 other calibres just don't really make sense. FAC is a completely different discussion.
    Again you talk as if nothing but FT/HFT matters in air gunning when in reality it's a very niche sport.

    Many, if not most air gunners simply don't care about either, personally I don't give a flying ---- who wins or what they shoot with
    if I did care or if I only shot paper sat at a bench then, yes, I might shoot .177, but as I don't there are calibres better suited for how/what I do shoot.
    Last edited by angrybear; 05-12-2023 at 08:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HarrisK View Post
    They use .177 because that is what the rule book says they must use, nothing else if the rules changed they would switch and then you'd be posting the same about whatever that new cal was

    That is very true But Why did they choose .177 when other calibers were available,?
    Because, as I said in post #20 it's a follow on from parlor/gallery shooting with Floberts & Zimmerstutzen,
    which had already settled on 4.3-4.5mm as an accurate size of projectile for their available power.

    BSA simply adopted what was already being used, for air rifles designed to do much the same, indoor parlor shooting, but without using a "blank" cartridge for each shot.
    Last edited by angrybear; 05-12-2023 at 08:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bacon Careful View Post
    I always assumed it was due to the 12fp limit being introduced, you can fire a lighter .177 faster at legal levels meaning you get the flatter trajectory.
    BSA introduced .177 in around 1904/5,
    12fpe only came in as part of the 1969 firearms act.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    BSA introduced .177 in around 1904/5,
    12fpe only came in as part of the 1969 firearms act.
    Now were getting somewhere! Was that the first no.1 bore airgun?
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    Quote Originally Posted by HarrisK View Post
    I can only suggest you ask the World's Top Class shooters, they use .177 probably because it is the Best caliber if you want consistency, accuracy and precision, they are trying to hit a 2mm target every time, hitting a rat or a rabbet does not require this degree of precession
    I use both .177 and .22 quite happily and don't prefer one over the other, as such. Each has their advantages and disadvantages. In my opinion, there is no difference in accuracy. Any differences in that area come from the gun / pellet combo and user error. As an example, using a resurrected old HW77 at Brian Samson's indoor range, this venerable old .22, wearing a basic non-AO 4x32, and using FTTs straight from the tin, shot 7mm edge-to-edge groups at 25 yards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinbum View Post
    Genuine question.

    We all know a .22 makes a bigger hole which is better for hunting, it is also less susceptible to pocket damage and latent homosexuality. The .177’s feeble efficiency means a significantly lower shot count in PCP’s and higher recoil for any given power in proper spring powered airguns, so why is .177 so popular?

    The lack of a necessity for fieldcraft skill is an excuse in hunting, but surely target shooters should embrace the better final result of the larger pellet?

    I’m not trying to start an argument, I use .20, but I sometimes look at .177 shooters and wonder if they were not loved enough as children?
    Assuming both are shot from sub 12ft/lb, .177" shoots faster and has a flatter trajectory. If a .22" makes a bigger hole, does a .177" have more penetration at the same range and energy - which is better for hunting? Which calibre is most common in competitive target shooting and why? Does .20" have all the advantages and none of the disadvantages of the larger and smaller calibres, or is the opposite actually the case? Do all .22" shooters sexualise their ammunition, or only the anti-.177" ones?
    Last edited by Mascotter; 06-12-2023 at 09:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    Again you talk as if nothing but FT/HFT matters in air gunning when in reality it's a very niche sport.

    Many, if not most air gunners simply don't care about either, personally I don't give a flying ---- who wins or what they shoot with
    if I did care or if I only shot paper sat at a bench then, yes, I might shoot .177, but as I don't there are calibres better suited for how/what I do shoot.
    Again completely missing the point. I only mention FT/HFT because I used to shoot them a lot, I don't do BR or 10m etc. I learned a lot during that time, shooting techniques, range finding techniques, different manufacturers, how important balance is, pellet types and probably more important the info gathered from proper practice and testing. Different set ups, calibres scopes and yes calibres. Accuracy tests, consistency tests and coping against wind tests. Its not so much weight or calibre but BC and quality of consistent manufacture.
    The point is people talk, and that's what sells guns, scopes, pellets and calibres. Did a .22 mercury kill any less than a .22 80? No.
    My Diana 52 was as accurate as 77 Mk1, did it sell as well? No. Why did the Rapid 7 out sell almost every other PCP when it came out?
    People talk, at RFD, at club, on here or in pub. The 80 was deemed very powerful so it sold (could easy make 18ftlb), 77 was more accurate so it sold (77 won FT comps in .177) etc. What has .20 actually done.
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