Help with early wood grip Webley Junior pistol. Advice please!

[Mobiasstrip]

I am currently a probationary member of BFTO and (embarrassingly) for the first time now properly testing the accuracy of some of the vintage pistols that I have owned for many years.
I had a short session with my very early wood grip Junior serial J1025 yesterday. Unfortunately, after a few shots the pistol would not cock/lock correctly and testing was abandoned.
After stripping down and checking today I was completely surprised by the piston design (and condition).
Firstly here is the Junior assembled and stripped.



The sear looks in good condition. The big surprise is the piston.
Firstly it is made in two parts that insert together and are locked by a pin.

Secondly the “sear locating groove” is badly worn round most of the circumference. This explains why it now fails to cock correctly.


I have read the Webley Junior write up in Gordon Bruce’s excellent book and he makes no mention of such a piston design. Have any of the old hands seen such a thing? It’s a very early gun but I don’t believe it’s factory. Presumably a previous owners modification.
Secondly, will any early/pre-war Junior’s piston work as a replacement? I would really like to get the pistol shooting again as it is otherwise in lovely condition. I will look for a cheap tatty donor if the piston sizes do not change.
Advice very much appreciated.
Steve

[Maple]

I've never had a wood grip variant apart, but both my tin grip models have a normal piston and if that was mine I would see if they fit and work in that pistol. Do you own a tin grip which you could try the piston in ?

[Mobiasstrip]

I've never had a wood grip variant apart, but both my tin grip models have a normal piston and if that was mine I would see if they fit and work in that pistol. Do you own a tin grip which you could try the piston in ?

Good suggestion and I have two and will definitely try one in J1025. Both are also quite early and I anticipate that they will fit. However both are too good to be permanent donors.

I’ve read Bruce’s two Junior “mark one” chapters and can find no reference to a change in piston design (except the polyethylene washer). Hoping to get some confirmation that buying a later tatty Series one or Series 2 Junior donor will work. Also really interested to see if anyone has seen a similar two part piston.
Steve

[ccdjg]

I had a look at my wood grip J1277 which is a bit later than yours, and it has the normal one-piece piston. Could be the piston started off like yours and was soon changed by Webley for cost reasons. A very interesting variation, which I am pretty sure is original, given the excellent condition of your pistol.
It would be good to find another example that predated yours, just to be 100% certain it was a standard Webley design.

[Maple]

I really can’t see what possible advantage there could have been, or even thought to have been to do that to a piston. With utmost respect I don’t think the great Webley & Scott would have done something like that for no obvious gain —albeit somebody did !

[ggggr]

Firstly---Johns piston. I'm sure it is a trick of the light but I cannot see the ring that the sear engages in


Steve---I'm sure you know how to go about it --but here goes anyhow,
Try the barrel and linkage off your gun on another Junior and see if it cocks. This is just to check if the cocking shoe is knackered. If it doesn't cock then it is obviously knackered.

I'm pretty certain a later piston will fit your early Junior.
You can probably clean that holding face of yours in a lathe, although you will lose a touch of power as the piston wont come quite as far back before it engages.

Regarding the originality of the piston----I cannot say one way or another. If it was some sort of prototype, the size of the head or the boss could change weight and preload, but washers in the piston could do the same.
I think some Baikals have the piston head fitted like that. I've a Webley Senior piston with a very worn and rounded holding face, and a head like yours would be an option to repair it if I could find someone to make one or adapt a later pistols damaged piston.


I guess if you undo the piston washer screw and it it not a Webley one (I think they used one of those odd ball Webley threads? "-Junior piston washer screw only shows one size, R/H; 0.205" X 30tpi whit form.")---then it would suggest it is a home made head. If it was a Webley thread, then it would suggest it was Webley or someone who worked there who did it.


It may be the light, but your trigger pin hole looks very low on the frame?

Please let us know how you get on

[ccdjg]

Firstly---Johns piston. I'm sure it is a trick of the light but I cannot see the ring that the sear engages in

You are quite right Guy. I dissembled the gun and took that picture last night just before going to bed and all that registered was a one-piece rather than a two-piece piston. In the cold light of day, it is obviously non-standard and a replacement must have been made for some reason. Odd because the rest of the gun is in excellent original condition as far as I can see.

The construction of the piston is weird and uses a single tube milled on two sides - one providing passage groove for the cocking slider and the other one for the sear. Although the piston is obviously non-original, the pistol does seem to cock and fire OK. (Sorry Steve for inadvertently hijacking your post).

[Josie & John]

Fascinating. I wonder if the two piece piston was a cost cutting measure that didn't last long as has been alluded. Like John has suggested, I think it does look factory original.

I own J1496, which is a little later but that of course means little in Webley terms. However, I'm a little reluctant to take her apart for curiosity as she's a nice one.

I'd be interested to see if a standard Junior piston interchanges.

BTW you have joined the best vintage subsection of a club in the land. When you next attend, please pass on Josie's and my regards.

John

[Garvin]

I'm no expert in these things but I wonder whether Steve's piston is original to the first Juniors, which Webley presumably saw as a budget youth model and pursued cost savings wherever possible.

Having a tube body and a short machined end section looks like it might be cheap to produce? Hard to see anyone else doing it afterwards. The pistol looks too good to have been used so much the piston was knackered!

Edit: beat me to it John!

[Josie & John]

I'm no expert in these things but I wonder whether Steve's piston is original to the first Juniors, which Webley presumably saw as a budget youth model and pursued cost savings wherever possible.

Having a tube body and a short machined end section looks like it might be cheap to produce? Hard to see anyone else doing it afterwards. The pistol looks too good to have been used so much the piston was knackered!

Edit: beat me to it John!

Great minds....

[rapidresponse1]

i love the look of the old pistols

[Mobiasstrip]

I am lucky enough to have 4 Juniors. 3 pre war and one extended Bakelite grip.



I pulled out all the pistons this afternoon. All look identical. The top one is the two part example.



The leather washers and retaining screws look the same. However while they are the same thread the two part example has a shorter threaded length.




I tried the slightly later piston on the wood grip and it worked perfectly.
I’ll now try and source a replacement leather washer piston so all four pistols work.

You need to lok closely to see that the wood grip piston is different - ie spot the retaining pin!

Hard to believe it’s factory as I would have expected someone else will have spotted an example over the years. However it certainly is of factory standards and not easy to tell that it's different.

Fascinating stuff!
Steve

[isobar]

Interesting,I can't see why it would be a cheaper method to manufacture a 2 piece piston neither can I understand why an owner would need to make the alteration,intriguing!
we'll have to see if others come to light.

[ccdjg]

Interesting,I can't see why it would be a cheaper method to manufacture a 2 piece piston neither can I understand why an owner would need to make the alteration,intriguing!
we'll have to see if others come to light.

A one piece piston would require deep boring out a solid round bar in order to have one end closed, whereas a two piece piston could be made from standard steel tubing. So there could be a potential saving in material and time, even though more operations are involved.
As an amateur, I have made a few pistons for my repro' pistols and have always used the two piece construction because it was much easier to do.

[ggggr]

As I said earlier--if the piston washer screw is the right thread then it would suggest that the 2 part piston is Webley or done by someone at Webley with access to the right taps.
"Junior piston washer screw only shows one size, R/H; 0.205" X 30tpi whit form."

Also as I pointed out--(I think) later Baikal pistons have the head pinned, which i assume is done for cheapness.
If that piston is an original unmodified one they you have to ask why Webley went over to the one piece design? Was the 2 piece too much trouble?
When you think that the Mk1 was in production before the Junior, then you would think that they might have tried a 2 piece on on that at some earlier point?

If I had to guess, I'd say the piston was modified by someone at Webley.