MRAD v MOA rifle scope

[angrybear]

Having just had the FFP/SFP thread which went quite well, I feel we are probably ready for the "big one", MRAD or MOA
and frankly do people actually have a clue what they're doing ?

MOA
Most of our scopes will be using 1/4 moa turrets, so 1 click will change the POA by 1/4" at 100yds or 1/8" at 50yds, 1/16" at 25yds
Equally at 200yds 1 click is 1/2" or at 400yds is 1"

MRAD
MRAD turrets are 1 click = 1/10th mil, so change 1cm at 100m, 5mm at 50m, 2.5mm at 25m.
or 2cm at 200m, 4cm at 400m

Many, if not most scopes currently sold have a "mil-dot" ret of some type, yet the vast majority of UK airgun scopes still use MOA turrets which adjust on a completely different scale
Surely if your scope has mil-dots, to use them you need the turret adjustment that can match, otherwise they're just random marks.

And this is also where the FFP (MRAD) scope really wins because the mil-dots are always true (at any mag) so if POI is 2 dots out you know 20 clicks, 1.5 dots out 15 clicks, etc.

[gsxrman]

I have always had MOA scopes. Never liked mill dots for all the reasons mentioned so I either dialed in distance with turret or shifted aim point above or below (FT/HFT style).
This never bothered me as I learned to this quite well.

Having said that, I have recently just put a 6-24 FFP Mildot MRAD scope on my sons rifle. The thing just works, its game changer tech even if the glass isn't quite as good as the scopes on my rifles.

I would have one on my rifles tomorrow as long as the glass is like my Burris!!!

[Muskett]

Absolutely right in that reticule hashes should correspond to adjustment be it MOA or MRAD. Some manufacturers mixed them up in the early days, which just shows how disconnected they were to their market. However, unlikely to be found now.

I have never found Milldots to be that useful for drop; nor for that mater their real use of range finding. To be useful any "Christmas tree" hashes need to be much closer.

Not all MRAD turrets click 1 click = 1/10th mil. Also 1cm is larger than 1/4", more like a 1/3, well either not that close.

Thankfully, I can work with either. Know what an inch looks like, and what a cm does too. Roughly 2.5cm to an inch. But when you really get to extreme distances these little differences really add up; as do temperature, altitude, air pressure. Those ballistic calculators start to show their worth. However, ballistic calculators only get you close, and the actual practical is the one that counts.

The clearer the glass and image, and the higher the magnification, the more likely you might see the hit. If off the mark then adjust for the second shot. "Walk it in". If you can't see the strike you have nothing to work with. I have had plenty of success making second shot count by just using a plex reticule. I quite like close plex reticules and at set magnifications have used them for reference with drop. However, the more complex reticules can give more reference points, either at set magnification on SFP, or any magnification FFP (if you can see it). Then either use that reference point or click adjust from the information given. Here FFP have a real advantage.

Both MOA and MRAD FFP Christmas tree reticule scopes work. So long as reticule and clicks are the same then unless in the military where they use MRAD, which one doesn't much matter. Exactly what reticule design matters more. I think there are better reticules that are less cluttered than the Horus type. There is a heated present debate on designs and which are the best compromise between information, clutter, and ease/swiftness of use as no one has it perfect. Some of it comes down to exactly what application.
Here is the reticule on one of mine:
https://vortexoptics.com/razor-hd-lh...icle-XLR-2~MOA

The big ask is can your combo and its application utilise such information for real? Total overkill for most of mine, and way too slow in use too.

[angrybear]

Well I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Yes, all MRAD turrets are 1 click = 0.1 (1/10th) MRAD.

Hawke are probably the most popular brand of airgun scope, but most of their "mil-dot" scopes are SFP, with MOA turrets,

It's easy to write "if you see it adjust for the second shot" but adjust how much is my point,
so if you see the impact is 2 dots low at 3x mag how many clicks is that ??
Answer is you need to know what mag is "true" how many dots it is at true & then convert how many MOA that is, assuming of course that you also know the range.

of course on a range you can measure the miss & just dial that measurement but doing that you don't need multi aim points anyway.

Yes an MRAD click is greater than a MOA click, but as 1 click is 1mm per 10m range it's easier to dial in, ie at 35m 1 click is 3.5mm, what's 1 click MOA at 35yds ? (cue some maths )
answer is 7/64" but I needed a calculator to work it out.

Point I'm trying to make is that at airgun ranges MRAD is just easier to work out scope adjustments, than MOA is.

[Bellycrawler]

No idea not a clue I don't even know what my scopes are in that dept. I just zero at a given distance, shoot at different distances, note the aim points & away I go. Once set at my prefered distance I don't fiddle / twiddle.

[angrybear]

No idea not a clue I don't even know what my scopes are in that dept. I just zero at a given distance, shoot at different distances, note the aim points & away I go. Once set at my prefered distance I don't fiddle / twiddle.

And I doubt you're the only one

But how can you "note the aim point" if you don't know what the multi aim points are ?
Or do you mean "note the miss on paper & use that miss to aim off" ?

I'm talking more for hunting/pest control where if you miss the target is off on it's toes

[Travis299]

Having just had the FFP/SFP thread which went quite well, I feel we are probably ready for the "big one", MRAD or MOA
and frankly do people actually have a clue what they're doing ?

MOA
Most of our scopes will be using 1/4 moa turrets, so 1 click will change the POA by 1/4" at 100yds or 1/8" at 50yds, 1/16" at 25yds
Equally at 200yds 1 click is 1/2" or at 400yds is 1"

MRAD
MRAD turrets are 1 click = 1/10th mil, so change 1cm at 100m, 5mm at 50m, 2.5mm at 25m.
or 2cm at 200m, 4cm at 400m

Many, if not most scopes currently sold have a "mil-dot" ret of some type, yet the vast majority of UK airgun scopes still use MOA turrets which adjust on a completely different scale
Surely if your scope has mil-dots, to use them you need the turret adjustment that can match, otherwise they're just random marks.

And this is also where the FFP (MRAD) scope really wins because the mil-dots are always true (at any mag) so if POI is 2 dots out you know 20 clicks, 1.5 dots out 15 clicks, etc.

This may help.

One MOA Calculation (Note, MOA = minute of angle).
This is how you can determine the one MOA for any target.
1. Determine the distance or range to this target.
2. Convert this number to inches or centimeters for metric.
3. Double this number. (Diameter of a circle at this target distance or range).
4. Use Pi, 3.14159265 times the number in step 3. (Circumference of a circle is Pi x D).
5. Divide this number by 21,600. (Note 21,600 is the number of minutes in a circle, 360 degrees times 60 minutes in one degree).
This number is the one MOA in inches, or centimeters if used, for this distance or range to the target. (Group shots are measured center to center).
Example:
1. 100 yards to target.
2. 100 times 3’ times 12” equal 3600” to the 100 yard target.
3. 3600” x 2 equal 7200”. (Diameter of 100 yard circle in inches).
4. Pi 3.14159 times 7200” equal 22,619.448”. (Circumference of 100 yard circle).
5. 22,619.448” divided by 21,600 = 1.04719”. (One MOA at 100 yards in inches).
This number is usually rounded to 1” for one MOA at 100 yards. The one MOA equal 1” is an ARC measurement and not a straight line as it is a very small section, 1” of the overall circle circumference at 100 yards.
A trivia note, one MOA on the moon is about 69.5 miles, 111.85 Kilometers! (238,900 miles, 384,472.28 Kilometers to the moon).

Also:

Milliradians, (MRAD or Mil) and Minute of Angle, (MOA) Trivia MOA vs MRAD Reticles | An Official Journal Of The NRA (shootingillustrated.com)
(Best with a 6 pack of Beer)

Formula for circumference of a circle = Diameter, (D) x Pi, (Pi = 3.14159.)
There are 7200” in (D) diameter of a 100 yard circle. (100 x 36” x 2 = 7200”)
Circumference of a circle at 100 yards = 22,619.448”, (7200” x 3.14159 Pi.)
1 MRAD & 1 MOA is an angular numeric calculation at a specific distance or range to the target. Shots are measured center to center.
6,283.185 Milliradians (MRAD) = 1 CIRCLE (Pi 3.14159 x 2 x 1000 = 6,283.185, mathematical.)
6,400 Milliradians = 1 CIRCLE, (NATO rounded MRAD.)
21,600 Minutes = 1 CIRCLE, (360 degrees x 60 Minutes in 1 degree = 21,600 minutes)
1 MOA = 1.0471975” at 100 yards, 22,619.448”/21,600 Minutes, (1” rounded.)
1 MRAD = 3.6” at 100 yards, 22,619.448”/6283.185 MRAD, mathematical.
1 MRAD = 3.534” at 100 yards, 22,619.448/6400 MRAD, NATO.
1 MRAD = 10 cm at 100 meters. (2 x PI x 1000 = 6283.185 MRADs in a circle). 100 meters = 10,000 cm x 2 = 20,000 cm in diameter of 100 meter circle. 20K x PI = 62,831.85/6,283.18 MRADs = 10 cm; for (1 MRAD at 100 meters = 10 centimeters).
Scope settings MOA or MRAD.
It also depends on what your scope's notion of 1 milliradian is, because the NATO milliradian differs from the mathematical definition of a milliradian.

A mathematically accurate radian is that part of a circle where 2 * PI radians is a full circle, and a milliradian, (MRAD), is 1/1000th of a radian, so a full circle is equal to approximately 6283.185 milliradians (2000 * PI).
But the NATO definition of a milliradian for use in ballistics is that a full circle is split into 6400 NATO milliradians.

Anyway, the difference is not very large, with mathematically accurate MRADs, 1 MRAD is 100 cm @ 1000 m, with 1 NATO MRAD, it is 98.2 cm @ 1000 m. For this reason, if your scope uses mathematically accurate MRADs, 1 MRAD is about 3.44 MOAs, but if it uses NATO MRADs, then 1 MRAD is 3.375 MOAs.
 
The distance of the reticle's movement per click is tan(angle) * distance, however, at longer distances this is not exactly equal to the change in point of impact, because of the difference between changes to the line of sight and changes in the bullet's trajectory.

degrees = MOAs / 60
MOAs = degrees * 60

degrees = MRADs / (PI * 1000) * 180
degrees = (MRADs / 6400) * 360 [with NATO MRADs]
MRADs = (degrees / 180) * PI * 1000
MRADs = (degrees / 360) * 6400 [with NATO MRADs]

MOAs = MRADs / (PI * 1000) * 10800
MOAs = (MRADs / 6400) * 21600 [with NATO MRADs]
MRADs = (MOAs / 10800) * PI * 1000
MRADs = (MOAs / 21600) * 6400 [with NATO MRADs]

[angrybear]

Thanks for making the effort, but TBH I deliberately didn't bother to put the maths to avoid confusion.
the shooter only needs to know the effect on POA, not the theory of where they come from.

[Muskett]

Nothing wrong with understanding the theory of the Maths involved. Thankfully, ballistic calculators can do it all super fast. The more advanced calculate in all the variables too.
I still maintain that even putting in the best data possible to run such programmes they can only get you close. Only doing the real practical will give proof of spot on, and remember every day has different conditions.
Ballistic calculators can usually do both MOA and MRAD; just don't go mixing them up with your reticule and turrets.

Though I'm not the greatest fan of Hurus reticule system, they did champion FFS for extended range use. For long range use then the FFP systems has a lot of merit.

BTW, I like using meters over yards. Your laser and drop charts need to know.

Thankfully too, keep your hunting to "point blank" ranges doesn't require too much ballistic input. However, some effort is required to find a perfect zero range where the projectiles flight stays within "kill zone" parameters.
I find a couple of drop point references can extend the "point blank" to be a little longer and a little more precise. If I want more then dial and use any added aid to hand. All from doing the practical and taking notes.

[Muskett]

Last point, if I was new to the game I would use meters and MRAD. Stick to them only.
6" is is 15cm Its how you use it.

[gsxrman]

Nothing wrong with understanding the theory of the Maths involved. Thankfully, ballistic calculators can do it all super fast. The more advanced calculate in all the variables too.
I still maintain that even putting in the best data possible to run such programmes they can only get you close. Only doing the real practical will give proof of spot on, and remember every day has different conditions.
Ballistic calculators can usually do both MOA and MRAD; just don't go mixing them up with your reticule and turrets.

Though I'm not the greatest fan of Hurus reticule system, they did champion FFS for extended range use. For long range use then the FFP systems has a lot of merit.

BTW, I like using meters over yards. Your laser and drop charts need to know.

Thankfully too, keep your hunting to "point blank" ranges doesn't require too much ballistic input. However, some effort is required to find a perfect zero range where the projectiles flight stays within "kill zone" parameters.
I find a couple of drop point references can extend the "point blank" to be a little longer and a little more precise. If I want more then dial and use any added aid to hand. All from doing the practical and taking notes.

Depends on your set up, but I have a PBR of 9.2-42.3 Yards

[Muskett]

There is a lot to commend knowing your PBR ballistic curve for your calibre and its velocity. 1" is generally considered the air rifle kill zone. Somewhere on the trajectory curve the closest will 1/2" low, in the middles 1/2" high, and at the furthest 1/2" low again. There will be two places where it's spot on; on zero perfect. For each combo exactly where the zeros are needs to be worked out by doing the range practical as no two combos are exactly the same. Heck even the 1/2" can be improved on when making the shot as the target is "on the close side", "between the zeros", and "at the furthest". A clear crisp glass scope with a good plex can give enough quality sight picture to do "perfect" shot placement; just takes a load of practice and getting familiar with it all.
Change ammo, and ammo weight, then it needs working out again. Taking notes helps keep track of results.

So MAO or MRAD, SSP or SFP, really isn't so big a deal if shooting to PBR. As I said KISS.
John Darling would stalk to his PBR zeros to put it in the bag.

Note, 12ft/lbs air rifle pellets have no concern-able shock power to them, so perfect shot placement is everything. .22LR, .177HMR. and full bore calibres, have real shock, 3" to 6" of devastation; which is an aid to what constitutes their PBR.

However, there is a lot of fun to be had trying different systems on the target range. It's more shooting, pushing boundaries, and having some fun.