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Thread: MRAD v MOA rifle scope

  1. #1
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    MRAD v MOA rifle scope

    Having just had the FFP/SFP thread which went quite well, I feel we are probably ready for the "big one", MRAD or MOA
    and frankly do people actually have a clue what they're doing ?

    MOA
    Most of our scopes will be using 1/4 moa turrets, so 1 click will change the POA by 1/4" at 100yds or 1/8" at 50yds, 1/16" at 25yds
    Equally at 200yds 1 click is 1/2" or at 400yds is 1"

    MRAD
    MRAD turrets are 1 click = 1/10th mil, so change 1cm at 100m, 5mm at 50m, 2.5mm at 25m.
    or 2cm at 200m, 4cm at 400m

    Many, if not most scopes currently sold have a "mil-dot" ret of some type, yet the vast majority of UK airgun scopes still use MOA turrets which adjust on a completely different scale
    Surely if your scope has mil-dots, to use them you need the turret adjustment that can match, otherwise they're just random marks.

    And this is also where the FFP (MRAD) scope really wins because the mil-dots are always true (at any mag) so if POI is 2 dots out you know 20 clicks, 1.5 dots out 15 clicks, etc.

  2. #2
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    I have always had MOA scopes. Never liked mill dots for all the reasons mentioned so I either dialed in distance with turret or shifted aim point above or below (FT/HFT style).
    This never bothered me as I learned to this quite well.

    Having said that, I have recently just put a 6-24 FFP Mildot MRAD scope on my sons rifle. The thing just works, its game changer tech even if the glass isn't quite as good as the scopes on my rifles.

    I would have one on my rifles tomorrow as long as the glass is like my Burris!!!
    VAYA CON DIOS

  3. #3
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    Absolutely right in that reticule hashes should correspond to adjustment be it MOA or MRAD. Some manufacturers mixed them up in the early days, which just shows how disconnected they were to their market. However, unlikely to be found now.

    I have never found Milldots to be that useful for drop; nor for that mater their real use of range finding. To be useful any "Christmas tree" hashes need to be much closer.

    Not all MRAD turrets click 1 click = 1/10th mil. Also 1cm is larger than 1/4", more like a 1/3, well either not that close.

    Thankfully, I can work with either. Know what an inch looks like, and what a cm does too. Roughly 2.5cm to an inch. But when you really get to extreme distances these little differences really add up; as do temperature, altitude, air pressure. Those ballistic calculators start to show their worth. However, ballistic calculators only get you close, and the actual practical is the one that counts.

    The clearer the glass and image, and the higher the magnification, the more likely you might see the hit. If off the mark then adjust for the second shot. "Walk it in". If you can't see the strike you have nothing to work with. I have had plenty of success making second shot count by just using a plex reticule. I quite like close plex reticules and at set magnifications have used them for reference with drop. However, the more complex reticules can give more reference points, either at set magnification on SFP, or any magnification FFP (if you can see it). Then either use that reference point or click adjust from the information given. Here FFP have a real advantage.

    Both MOA and MRAD FFP Christmas tree reticule scopes work. So long as reticule and clicks are the same then unless in the military where they use MRAD, which one doesn't much matter. Exactly what reticule design matters more. I think there are better reticules that are less cluttered than the Horus type. There is a heated present debate on designs and which are the best compromise between information, clutter, and ease/swiftness of use as no one has it perfect. Some of it comes down to exactly what application.
    Here is the reticule on one of mine:
    https://vortexoptics.com/razor-hd-lh...icle-XLR-2~MOA

    The big ask is can your combo and its application utilise such information for real? Total overkill for most of mine, and way too slow in use too.
    Last edited by Muskett; 21-01-2025 at 04:43 PM.

  4. #4
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    Well I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure that Yes, all MRAD turrets are 1 click = 0.1 (1/10th) MRAD.

    Hawke are probably the most popular brand of airgun scope, but most of their "mil-dot" scopes are SFP, with MOA turrets,

    It's easy to write "if you see it adjust for the second shot" but adjust how much is my point,
    so if you see the impact is 2 dots low at 3x mag how many clicks is that ??
    Answer is you need to know what mag is "true" how many dots it is at true & then convert how many MOA that is, assuming of course that you also know the range.

    of course on a range you can measure the miss & just dial that measurement but doing that you don't need multi aim points anyway.

    Yes an MRAD click is greater than a MOA click, but as 1 click is 1mm per 10m range it's easier to dial in, ie at 35m 1 click is 3.5mm, what's 1 click MOA at 35yds ? (cue some maths )
    answer is 7/64" but I needed a calculator to work it out.

    Point I'm trying to make is that at airgun ranges MRAD is just easier to work out scope adjustments, than MOA is.

  5. #5
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    No idea not a clue I don't even know what my scopes are in that dept. I just zero at a given distance, shoot at different distances, note the aim points & away I go. Once set at my prefered distance I don't fiddle / twiddle.
    Rabbit Stew, no artificial additives except lead.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellycrawler View Post
    No idea not a clue I don't even know what my scopes are in that dept. I just zero at a given distance, shoot at different distances, note the aim points & away I go. Once set at my prefered distance I don't fiddle / twiddle.
    And I doubt you're the only one

    But how can you "note the aim point" if you don't know what the multi aim points are ?
    Or do you mean "note the miss on paper & use that miss to aim off" ?

    I'm talking more for hunting/pest control where if you miss the target is off on it's toes

  7. #7
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    I too for most of my hunting shoot within "point blank", or at least to a couple of drop points. All tested on the range. KISS.

    But such limited boundaries aren't where a whole load of shooting is going. On targets far more advanced ballistics and scope features are being used as are the distances being shot at which get further and further away. Civilian shooters doing more long distance involved multi distance shooting, and military sniping hitting the enemy further and further out.

    When air rifles become more and more accurate then how to test them and the shooter? Smaller targets or push the distance out. Here feature rich scopes come into their own. A hit isn't enough as only a precision "bull" will do.

    All good fun.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    And I doubt you're the only one

    But how can you "note the aim point" if you don't know what the multi aim points are ?
    Or do you mean "note the miss on paper & use that miss to aim off" ?

    I'm talking more for hunting/pest control where if you miss the target is off on it's toes
    As a simple example. At a range at 50yds my 22lr is spot on, at a measured 115yds it's one & a half dots down. With my air rifle spot on at 25yds & shoot at every 5yds noting how many dots or half dots I need to aim "off". Once zero is set I don't twiddle with the settings. Out in the field I use a range finder to know distances. Out in the field I tend to have fixed known distances allready sorted so I know what part of the ret to use. Bit like a shot gun, knowing how far in front to aim. When you know you know. I don't know turret twiddle techniques so stick with distance & what dot or half dot or gap to use
    Rabbit Stew, no artificial additives except lead.
    IF THE MUD REACHES YOUR KNEES GET OUT OF THE FIELD QUICK.
    WANTED. UNF MOD.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    And I doubt you're the only one

    But how can you "note the aim point" if you don't know what the multi aim points are ?
    Or do you mean "note the miss on paper & use that miss to aim off" ?

    I'm talking more for hunting/pest control where if you miss the target is off on it's toes
    When you aim & the group is off for a different distance shoot a group to confirm. Use the dot reference, aim accordingly. My bushnell has dots & big gaps so it's almost like a duplex ret at times.
    Rabbit Stew, no artificial additives except lead.
    IF THE MUD REACHES YOUR KNEES GET OUT OF THE FIELD QUICK.
    WANTED. UNF MOD.

  10. #10
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    Once reticules were made of wire. Eventually they were electro etched, but still physical wire. Now they are done with etched glass, and even the etching might be filled with more than just paint; all getting very clever. The Christmas tree is fully featured and even gets the lights!!!

    Most hunting was traditionally done at "point blank" ranges, and most still is. Things have moved on from then. We are all demanding more especially now that the ammunition and rifle combos deliver more and more accuracy.

    Whatever the system, FFP or SFP, play to their strengths to the application you require.

    I have a Delta Sryker 1-6 as my LPVO. This is in SFP. Now many want their LPVOs with FFP. Why? To use the reticle for drop. Well for this style of scope it will most likely be use at x1 for the red dot, or x6 for the magnification for longer ranges. Frankly, no real reason to use it in-between magnification of say 4.5x. One or the other so SFP is fine.
    My FFP Razor is a main scope and not intended for a LPVO. Magnification starts at x5 and goes all the way up to x25. Here the FFP reticules detail is easily enough read at about x10, though barely readable at its lowest. x10 to x25 all usable and the reticule remains to scale for drop calculations or to read to click.
    My SFP Zeiss main scope 5-25x50 gives a clear sight picture of the reticule at all magnifications. However the reticule gives little other useful information, so relies on the target turrets to click adjust to e spot on at any distance.
    Different systems, but can all get the job done.

    Does it matter if in MAO or MRAD? No. Not different systems, just different measurement scales. Know you are using inches or mm's.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrybear View Post
    And I doubt you're the only one

    But how can you "note the aim point" if you don't know what the multi aim points are ?
    Or do you mean "note the miss on paper & use that miss to aim off" ?

    I'm talking more for hunting/pest control where if you miss the target is off on it's toes
    I have an AGS 4-16x56 SWAT scope that has target type turrets without any calibration band around the perimeter which means dependance upon the mildot ret. I am no fan of mildots and like to dial my ranges so I tried various ways to use the scope by dialing. A rubber cap was found that fitted tightly over the dial knob and the gun it was on zeroed to 30 yds, a line with a gold liner pen was placed on the cap against a reference dot placed on the scope body. The gun was then zeroed at 15yd intervals out to 55yds and each point marked on the cap. What it has left me with is a scope where MOA/MRAD mean nothing, Now, when a range has been estimated, the cap is turned to the corresponding mark and the shot can be taken with no messing around with mildots by aiming centre cross hairs.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bellycrawler View Post
    As a simple example. At a range at 50yds my 22lr is spot on, at a measured 115yds it's one & a half dots down. With my air rifle spot on at 25yds & shoot at every 5yds noting how many dots or half dots I need to aim "off". Once zero is set I don't twiddle with the settings. Out in the field I use a range finder to know distances. Out in the field I tend to have fixed known distances allready sorted so I know what part of the ret to use. Bit like a shot gun, knowing how far in front to aim. When you know you know. I don't know turret twiddle techniques so stick with distance & what dot or half dot or gap to use
    So from that you must be shooting with a FFP scope, because if it's SFP the number of dots will change with the mag,
    unless of course the scope is fixed mag or you never zoom in/out which rather defeats the object of having variable zoom.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4end View Post
    I have an AGS 4-16x56 SWAT scope that has target type turrets without any calibration band around the perimeter which means dependance upon the mildot ret. I am no fan of mildots and like to dial my ranges so I tried various ways to use the scope by dialing. A rubber cap was found that fitted tightly over the dial knob and the gun it was on zeroed to 30 yds, a line with a gold liner pen was placed on the cap against a reference dot placed on the scope body. The gun was then zeroed at 15yd intervals out to 55yds and each point marked on the cap. What it has left me with is a scope where MOA/MRAD mean nothing, Now, when a range has been estimated, the cap is turned to the corresponding mark and the shot can be taken with no messing around with mildots by aiming centre cross hairs.
    As with Bellycrawler above, I doubt you're the only one using that system, but it does render the mil-dots obsolete, so a simple dot, cross or duplex ret would work equally well.

    Muskett
    Completely agree with you,
    I was expecting a few people to extol the virtue of one or the other, that they haven't maybe shows that very few actually use their mil-dots.

    Does that perhaps hint that mil-dot rets are chosen for fashion, rather than as an aiming aid ?
    Last edited by angrybear; 23-01-2025 at 12:11 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4end View Post
    I have an AGS 4-16x56 SWAT scope that has target type turrets without any calibration band around the perimeter which means dependance upon the mildot ret. I am no fan of mildots and like to dial my ranges so I tried various ways to use the scope by dialing. A rubber cap was found that fitted tightly over the dial knob and the gun it was on zeroed to 30 yds, a line with a gold liner pen was placed on the cap against a reference dot placed on the scope body. The gun was then zeroed at 15yd intervals out to 55yds and each point marked on the cap. What it has left me with is a scope where MOA/MRAD mean nothing, Now, when a range has been estimated, the cap is turned to the corresponding mark and the shot can be taken with no messing around with mildots by aiming centre cross hairs.
    That's FT all over, except zeros would be every 5 yards and some even go as far as every 2.5.
    VAYA CON DIOS

  15. #15
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    "Does that perhaps hint that mil-dot rets are chosen for fashion, rather than as an aiming aid ?"

    Mil-dots came about for military applications, mainly to measure distance on a human sized target. To answer the question then mil-dots are going out of fashion. Even half mil-dots. The distance thing was never that good and GPS and lasers taken over.
    They are being replaced with far more refined ladders and Christmas Tree reticules in FFP scopes.

    For SFP then there is a mix of everything, even "closed" and "wide" plexes.
    Confusing, some SFP scopes can have true measure to clicks at certain magnifications, or at least declared they do. At best can have a 1/2 and full measure that correspond to the clicks, but only at certain magnifications. Got to be made well to correspond accurately, and it doesn't take much for the zoom magnification to be off so ruining the match of reticule to click.
    SFP reticules can also be made to reflect your drop by using the magnification fit the reticule over the drop. However, your target turrets can only do the clicks they have.

    For SFP, I just have a drop chart with clicks, and use target turrets to make the drop adjustments. As in a BDC. The reticle is no aid.
    I also know the drop on target, so use them.
    Often with say a x4 or 3-9 at x9 I might have reference drop points on the reticle from testing the practice.
    But it is not like FFP at all where the reticle stays reliable. More a fudge to have something work to help, because of familiarity from loads of practice.

    If I am not shooting at basically point black ranges with a SFP scope I am dialling. FFP then I can dial or use the reticle; try not to mix them up with your drop chart/lose where you are.

    Different systems, so work to their strengths. And practice with them. For the right application both systems are great.
    MOA is being taken over by MRAD, as the latter is what the military is using now.
    Last edited by Muskett; 23-01-2025 at 02:43 PM.

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