Advice please gents

[Garvin]

I would appreciate the views of esteemed collectables regulars on the recent behaviour of a gun shop, which has upset me greatly.

I won’t be giving the name of the shop on this thread so please don’t ask. I’ve had good dealings with them in the past and believe them to be basically good people who have slipped up.

The facts are these:

I bought a vintage underlever from the shop by mail order and when it arrived I spotted several flaws that hadn’t been declared on the phone when I asked “is there anything else wrong with it?” These included a crack in the stock, a modern replacement front sight, two damaged retaining bolt threads and a couple of dodgy screw heads.

Things weren’t looking good but I hadn’t completely given up on the rifle yet. But then, on firing, there was as strange sound. I investigated and discovered that the leather piston washer was very loose on the piston due to the retaining bolt thread being badly stripped.

I called up the shop and they said OK, send it back for a full refund. (This they are obliged to do anyway for up to seven days under the distance selling regulations).

I packaged up the gun carefully, as always when using Royal Mail packing the stock/trigger block separate from the cylinder. This simple operation -- already done when checking the piston -- involves removing two small trigger guard screws and unscrewing the block from the cylinder tube. It takes about three minutes.

I sent off the gun at my own expense, with plenty of insurance. Next thing I know I’ve got a formal letter back from the shop headed “without prejudice”. It states they are “extremely surprised” to receive the gun “in two pieces” and accuses me of having “detached” the piston washer myself during the “unwarranted dismantling” of the gun.

The charge for “reassembling” the air rifle would be £24 and this would be deducted from my refund, the letter said.

Gobsmacked, I call them up for further explanation. The shop owner, who is well aware I’m not some new kid on the block who is clueless about airguns, admitted he had received the gun back safely. But he insisted he was entitled to charge for reassembling it, despite my pointing out that the piston and washer were defective in any case.

Now, there are one or two more details involved in the transaction but the above account includes all the relevant facts. The shop insists I should have returned the rifle in “one piece” and that it should have been sent “as was” as soon as I suspected there was a problem with its functioning.

As someone who has taken apart numerous vintage airguns, always uses proper gunsmith’s screwdrivers and knows every nut and bolt on the particular model in question, I take grave offence at this shop’s high-handed attitude. Especially since they failed to declare several major faults when they had the chance and cost me time and money to return the gun. I feel they owe me an apology and my £24 too.

What do the rest of you think?

[Mark D]

Having had, I assume, good experiences with them in the past, I would go in and see the owner and have a rational debate about the condition of the rifle as received and why you sent it back with the action detached from the stock. If he is a reasonable sort, with a mind on future business with you, then I would expect you to get the £24 back.
It is very easy to lose custom over 'misunderstandings' and if he has been in the business for any length of time, I am sure he will take the long view.

Good luck

[Prewar]

Ask to speak to the manager, explain that it had to be seperated into two halves in order to be posted via Royal Mail due to their new size restrictions (RM special delivery is really tight on this). It is common practice these days to seperate the action from the stock when posting, but always worth asking whoever you are sending it to if it is okay first.
I agree with you Danny about the high handed attitude, I wouldn't buy from that shop again. I assume you phoned them about all this before sending, and they were happy to have it returned on the faults not specified, what is the big deal about them having to put it back together? Presumably they would have to take it apart to fix the piston washer so you have saved them a 5 minute job!

Hope you get sorted mate

[Gareth W-B]

Hi Danny, I truly feel for you. If it were me, I would ask if they intend reassembling the rifle with the faulty internals to sell again, and if they say no, they will repair the internals first (as hopefully they would do), point out to them the five minutes you have saved them by professionally separating the back from the stock in readiness for the repair.

I would also point out to them that they are guaranteed your future custom if they reimburse you your £24, but if not, that you will be inclined to shop elsewhere until the residents of Hell start calling for mittens and over coats ... Atb m8, and keep us posted, as imho, this stinks: G.

[Mike95]

Vote with your feet is my advice.

Mike95

[hwvixen]

I agree with whats been said Danny...& would add that you should take the gun shop to task over posting directly to you...I thought this was a no-no?ATB,Chris.

[Troubledshooter]

Hi Danny,

I totally agree with your thoughts and reasons for returning the rifle in two pieces, but, if the rifle was received in one piece it should have been returned in the same condition, unless an agreement had been made with the shop management for it to be returned otherwise.
If the goods are not as described by the seller, and are returned as faulty, return postage should be refunded along with full purchase price including original postage.
If it's a shop you have had good dealings with previously, I would have thought a bit of common sense needs to shown by the shop owner/management.

Chris has made a very valid point, which I have just confirmed, that the shop should not have sent the rifle directly to you if the deal was done in a non face to face way.

[Garvin]

Thanks for the sensible and thoughtful comments so far. I should have made it clear that this was a pre-1939 air rifle and as such is not subject to the face to face limitation.

I don't agree with the suggestion that if received in one piece the rifle should necessarily be returned in one piece. As an account holder the seller uses a courier that is not available to me as an individual. So as the person responsible for returning the rifle in good order using Royal Mail, I had to do everything in my power to ensure it would get there undamaged. To my mind, separating it into two sections was the best I could do to guarantee its safety.

If the rifle hadn't had serious internal damage I may have checked with the shop first before separating it into two parts. But the idea that the shop is entitled to deduct the cost of reassembly when the gun is incapable of being used without a major internal repair seems quite absurd to me.

Also, under the distance selling regs my responsibility was simply to return the gun in the condition it was received by me for a full refund, no questions asked. Essentially that is exactly what I did.

IMO disassembly doesn't change the rifle's "condition", only the manner in which it was transported. To put it another way, the gun is made to be disassembled as part of its design, so undoing a couple of screws and doing them up again them doesn't alter the item's "condition".

[Mike95]

I think that Garvin should charge the shop for investigating and identifying the various faults. How much would the shop charge a customer for this service? I would also consider a complaint via Trading Standards if I did not already know what a useless bunch they usually are. The gun was sold in a faulty condition and the faults were not described by the seller....try this on the Airgun BBS and you would not sell anything else!

Mike95

[Muskett]

Just inform them that you will name and shame them on every gun forum you can and they will loose out more than 24 quid.
Inform your credit card too if bought on a card. If you have the time, waste as much of theirs as you can.

Gun shops are doing badly at present. "God they must be rich to not need customers".

[slug-gun]

Strictly speaking the gun should have been returned in the condition it was received, and ideally in the original packaging, in order to prempt and avoid the very accusations levelled at Garvin by the shop.
Also it is never a great idea to dismantle an item which you intend, or think you may intend, to return, as complaint by the seller is bound to ensue.
I accept that the reasons for disassembling the rifle were entirely sensible and logical, but also irrelevant in terms of avoiding a dispute.

All that said the shop owner is basically a fool for not just refunding all monies including postage, plus an apology, and putting any loss down to experience.
In fact if he had any sense and/or business acumen at all, he would also send a free box of pellets with the refund by way of compensation, and hope that you would continue to do business with him in the future.

I agree that you appear to have been treated shabbily in this instance.

[Lakey]

Sorry to hear you have had this trouble Danny. I would have expected the shop owner to have realised that he was in the wrong - selling a none working gun which was insufficiently described, and given you a full refund. He obviously didnt check the gun to see that it was working correctly.

I can see he may have had a problem with receiving the gun back dismantled, however the level of dismantling that you have described takes minutes to put right, and in any case would have needed to be done in order for him to have examined/repaired the gun. Therefore in the long run you have actually saved him time.

I agree with some of the replies already that say that the gun shop owner should take the long view,and should realise that a good customer saved, is worth more than a load of un-necessary agro and £24. A gun shops best advertisment is a happy customer, especially a collector - who talk to loads of other collectors

If this doesnt get resolved,I would vote with my feet and not buy any more guns from them. I hope you get it sorted.

All the Best

Lakey

[cptman]

if this dealer had an ounce of integrity he would offer a full refund, obviously he hasn't.
i must say if it were me i would have named and shamed, clearly you have more integrity than both of us!
good luck- vote with your feet.
atb
cptman

[Garvin]

Thanks again for all the considered comments. Needless to say, I won't be dealing with this shop again.

David, Chris, Andy, I do take the point about giving the seller reason for complaint about receiving the gun disassembled. With hindsight of course I should have sent the rifle back in one piece just to avoid the reaction I got!

Interestingly the Office of Fair Trading's notes on distance selling address the issue of packaging and the right to examine goods. In breach of the regs, the shop didn't publish any terms or conditions whatsoever on its website, or inform me what they were any other way.

Here's the OFT's section on cancellation rights and returns to help anyone else who finds themselves in a similar position (my highlights).

• unless cancellation rights under the Distance Selling
Regulations ('DSRs') do not apply, you must provide clear
information on cancellation rights and how customers can
cancel an order. Generally consumers have a minimum of
seven working days commencing the day following delivery
to exercise cancellation rights

• if your customer wishes to cancel the order, they must take
reasonable care of the product while in their possession

• you may set out what you consider to be reasonable care but
you may not impose conditions which prevent your
customers from exercising their right reasonably to examine
the goods. Typical conditions which may breach consumers'
rights include requirements that goods are returned unopened
(except in the case of sealed software or audio/video
recordings), 'as new' or 'in their original packaging'

• if the customer cancels an order under the DSRs, you may
not deduct from the refund the costs of outward delivery nor
other fees, such as an administration or restocking fee. The
refund should be made as quickly as possible and within a
maximum of 30 days

• if you wish to require your customer to return the goods in
the event of cancellation and to pay for the cost of doing so,
you must make this clear in your terms and conditions and
confirm it in writing or another durable medium.