Antique Firearm collecting

[Jim McArthur]

Hi Jeff
the only gaping hole in my collection is I don't have a blunderbus, have to get a blunderbus

Robin

But, wouldn't the muzzle ADD another "gaping hole" to your collection?

Jim

[Jim McArthur]

Hi Jim
A word of warning if you are going to use an antique gun get it reproofed no matter how good it looks.
Earlier this year I got a Martini Henry carbine which looked in very good condition with a very good bore so I thought I would put it on my ticket and use it.
A gunsmith friend checked it over and found it visually sound in in both bore and action so it was sent to the proof house where it passed the view but failed proof when the barrel was blown completely off and in half two inches beyond the chamber the forend wouldn't have held the pressure so I would been injured was it worth the £30-00 cost to proof test it?
How much value do you put on your hand or fingers say for arguments sake £10-00 a finger or £30-00 a hand?
Jeff

A great warning there, Jeff!

Jim

[Jim McArthur]

Well, there is me, but my collecting has gone a bit silly. Not a lot of 17th century, one over/under and one CW musq't barrel. Earliest piece, Wars of the Roses

What do you have from the Wars of the Rose, Robin?

Jim

[Jim McArthur]

Hi all

I just wondered if there are many of you who collect original antique firearms.
I have a been collecting for just over three years and have managed to put together a modest collection of nice pieces, both percussion and flintlock. My oldest piece dates to the late 17C.
I just thought it would be nice to build a network of like minded individuals where we can share advice and compare items etc.

Just a thought

Nick

Thanks for starting a great Thread, Nick!

Jim

[Fronteria]

This is great. It sounds like there are quite a few collectors here.

I myself used to collect vintage airguns like they were going out of fashion but around three years ago I saw a lovely double barrelled percussion overcoat pistol circa 1850 and knew I just had too have it. I have never looked back! (I still have a fair few airguns, particularly the good old Webley pistols).
I always try and save enough money so that I can get a decent piece rather than a ropey effort. It’s better to buy one good piece than two or three rough pieces.

My collection stands so far at:

FLINTLOCK
A stunning brass barrelled blunderbuss pistol by Walker, London (circa 1690)
A pair of brass framed and barrelled pocket pistols Joseph Heylin, London
An all brass over & under pistol with bayonet by Wheeler, London
A large officers pistol with fish tail grip by Tipping, Bath
A long sea service pistol with numerous ordnance markings (circa 1803)

PERCUSSION
A stunning double barrelled overcoat pistol (no name, marked London but Birmingham proofs)
A pocket pistol by Joseph Manton
A top-hat pocket pistol be Henry Nock
Colt 1860 Army revolver (I just had to have one)

PINFIRE
A small closed frame pistol. Fully engraved and nickel plated. Cased with accessories

Hi. Robin
I see you have a pistol by Wheeler I have an India pattern musket by him it is in very good condition still retaining about 90% of it's original brown.
It was made about 1799 and has Tower private proof marks.
The lock is engraved Wheeler on the tail and has as a swan neck cock, the lock is engraved with a crown over GR.
The usual 39" barrel in .750" calibre and carries inspectors marks of a crown over 99 so the musket was in the service of the military, I suspect it was purchased by the Tower armouries when their stocks became that low that they were forced to go to the gun trade and purchase any suitable weapons that the trade had in stock as demand had out striped supply due to the Peninsular war with France and demands for weapons from both India and Canada.
The stock is free of any cracks or damage and retains most of it's original finish, the ram rod, ram rod guides and end cap are original and of the standard India pattern.
Some different non standard furniture is fitted to this musket as the side plate is the same as the Baker rifle and the butt plate top tag is shorter and is rounded rather than pointed.
What puzzled me was that the stock is branded with two lines of letters and numbers about 3/4" high the first line is clearly the name J. Simpson the second line is XXXBURN188 the X's are only part letters due to the shape of the stock is it a date or regiment number say the 1st 88 which are the Rangers, the stock has a scorch mark on it from a camp fire?
Robert Wheeler started as a Gunmaker in 1797 in London changed his company name to Wheeler and Son in 1808 was still working in 1838-39 when he purchased 39,000 India pattern muskets from the Tower armouries out of their stock of over 250,000, he was also a gun supplier to the Hudson Bay Company in Canada.
If anyone has any suggestion as to what the second line branded into this musket means let me know.
The musket was out of New England in the USA when I purchased it.
Jeff

[barryeye]

[QUOTE=Fronteria;3742270]Hi Jim
Earlier this year I got a Martini Henry carbine which looked in very good condition with a very good bore so I thought I would put it on my ticket and use it.
A gunsmith friend checked it over and found it visually sound in in both bore and action so it was sent to the proof house where it passed the view but failed proof when the barrel was blown completely off and in half two inches beyond the chamber the forend wouldn't have held the pressure so I would been injured was it worth the £30-00 cost to proof test it?
How much value do you put on your hand or fingers say for arguments sake £10-00 a finger or £30-00 a hand?

I don't doubt you but I have to ask how your Martini could have passed the proof test when made but failed it later? I assume firearms can go out of proof with ware but with age?
Are you sure it was not one of the Khyber pass specials that are now all to common? Some of them look very very much like the real thing.
Barry

[robinghewitt]

What do you have from the Wars of the Rose, Robin?

I have possibly the oldest surviving lock mechanism. The Royal Armories have dibs on it after I gasp my last

[MikB]

A word of warning if you are going to use an antique gun get it reproofed no matter how good it looks.
Earlier this year I got a Martini Henry carbine which looked in very good condition with a very good bore so I thought I would put it on my ticket and use it.
A gunsmith friend checked it over and found it visually sound in in both bore and action so it was sent to the proof house where it passed the view but failed proof when the barrel was blown completely off and in half two inches beyond the chamber the forend wouldn't have held the pressure so I would been injured was it worth the £30-00 cost to proof test it?
How much value do you put on your hand or fingers say for arguments sake £10-00 a finger or £30-00 a hand?
Jeff

I have Mk.III Snider 3-band. It's my third one, and I never had any of them reproofed before shooting them.

What I did do with each one was fire a first round with a 10% overload compared with what I expected to use, supporting the gun in a jury-rigged rest and firing it with a string. I've got away with that so far.

Proofhouses, I believe, use a 25% overload and that seems to me too big a risk to take.

Regards,
MikB

[njaw]

Some nice pieces there, do you have a camera?

Yes. I will take some decent pics and post a link in due course. Taking pictures and researching the pieces is part of the fun of collecting I think.

[Fronteria]

[QUOTE=barryeye;3744150]

Hi Jim
Earlier this year I got a Martini Henry carbine which looked in very good condition with a very good bore so I thought I would put it on my ticket and use it.
A gunsmith friend checked it over and found it visually sound in in both bore and action so it was sent to the proof house where it passed the view but failed proof when the barrel was blown completely off and in half two inches beyond the chamber the forend wouldn't have held the pressure so I would been injured was it worth the £30-00 cost to proof test it?
How much value do you put on your hand or fingers say for arguments sake £10-00 a finger or £30-00 a hand?

I don't doubt you but I have to ask how your Martini could have passed the proof test when made but failed it later? I assume firearms can go out of proof with ware but with age?
Are you sure it was not one of the Khyber pass specials that are now all to common? Some of them look very very much like the real thing.
Barry

Hi. Barry
The gun was a genuine Enfield manufactured martini henry gun.
A Kyber pass special wouldn't have got pass the proof house viewing stage of the proof process.
The problem is you never know what has happened to the gun during it's last hundred odd years of life.
People do strange things to guns like a .22 sporter that wouldn't group and keyholed every shot, the guy had tried to remove the barrel to clean it and had twisted the rifling and straightened it out in one spot he then re twisted it back as the front sight was off to one side.
The problem was only found when a very tight patch was pushed down the barrel.
Some so called home gunsmiths are a menace and you don't have a record of what has happened to any gun you purchase particularly antiques.
Antique guns get bodged and abused up just like cars and you cannot always spot a problem before it's too late.
jeff

[dahtunnel]

apart from way too many deactivated weapons I have currently three antique long arms
A schmidt rubin 1889
A mauser 1871/84
and a martini henry chopped back to a sporterised rifle (a bit dubious that one)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/1439013...7609292464063/

David

[barryeye]

[QUOTE=Fronteria;3744375]

Hi. Barry
The gun was a genuine Enfield manufactured martini henry gun.
A Kyber pass special wouldn't have got pass the proof house viewing stage of the proof process.
The problem is you never know what has happened to the gun during it's last hundred odd years of life.
People do strange things to guns like a .22 sporter that wouldn't group and keyholed every shot, the guy had tried to remove the barrel to clean it and had twisted the rifling and straightened it out in one spot he then re twisted it back as the front sight was off to one side.
The problem was only found when a very tight patch was pushed down the barrel.
Some so called home gunsmiths are a menace and you don't have a record of what has happened to any gun you purchase particularly antiques.
Antique guns get bodged and abused up just like cars and you cannot always spot a problem before it's too late.
jeff

Hi Jeff.
I take your point but still find it difficult to understand how a rifle that was once in proof can without visable signs of ware or abuse go out of proof. No doubt that your one did but the question is how. To put it another way. If I wanted one of my Martinis to fail a proof test, how could I make this happen? And not make what I had done obvious to a gunsmiths inspection? Did the proof house give any indication as to why it failed? Was the metal flawed?
Just curious.
Barry

[loach369]

[QUOTE=barryeye;3744150]

Hi Jim
Earlier this year I got a Martini Henry carbine which looked in very good condition with a very good bore so I thought I would put it on my ticket and use it.
A gunsmith friend checked it over and found it visually sound in in both bore and action so it was sent to the proof house where it passed the view but failed proof when the barrel was blown completely off and in half two inches beyond the chamber the forend wouldn't have held the pressure so I would been injured was it worth the £30-00 cost to proof test it?
How much value do you put on your hand or fingers say for arguments sake £10-00 a finger or £30-00 a hand?

I don't doubt you but I have to ask how your Martini could have passed the proof test when made but failed it later? I assume firearms can go out of proof with ware but with age?
Are you sure it was not one of the Khyber pass specials that are now all to common? Some of them look very very much like the real thing.
Barry

FWIW: I have seen Sold out of Service / DP Martini rifles and carbines that have been 'deactivated' with a thin saw cut just forward of the knox form. I have also seen examples like this subsequently TIG/MIG welded,or even filled with Isopon or lead, aged and the chamber cleaned up with a reamer. Not saying that is what happened with your one but I cant see a rewelded or filled barrel passing proof.

[barryeye]

[QUOTE=loach369;3745730]

FWIW: I have seen Sold out of Service / DP Martini rifles and carbines that have been 'deactivated' with a thin saw cut just forward of the knox form. I have also seen examples like this subsequently TIG/MIG welded,or even filled with Isopon or lead, aged and the chamber cleaned up with a reamer. Not saying that is what happened with your one but I cant see a rewelded or filled barrel passing proof.

Ah. Now that could be the answer. I too have seen similar rifles including Martinis. However I was talking to a fellow collector today and he was of the opinion that steel goes "off" with age and that 150 year old rifle barrel will not be as strong as when it was made no matter if it has been well cared for and never fired. I'm still not sure about this but confess that it is out of my personal exterience to answer.
I own a number of Martinis and up until now have had no doubts about any of them that have been checked by a gunsmith or have come from a prevous collector that has shot them. I now have doubts.
Barry

[harry mac]

Hi Jim
People collect for several reasons from enjoying owning and in some cases using the peice, tracing the history of it this is pretty straight forward with military weapons as they are very often marked with the regiments initials and dated by the store keeper unless somebody has tried to enhance! the value and have cleaned the the lot off, the real effect is that they have reduced the value as every mark and ding is part of its history.
Some are purchased for pure investment which is risky as they tend to know little about what they are purchasing if you follow a antique gun through the system which I have done on several occasions when I have been beaten at an auction you will find that the retail price will be made up from the price paid plus the auctioners commission, the sum total is then doubled to make up the retail price.
What a shock the invester gets when they are trying to sell it five years later when the best offer is less than 75% of the original purchase price.
A word of warning if you are going to use an antique gun get it reproofed no matter how good it looks.
Earlier this year I got a Martini Henry carbine which looked in very good condition with a very good bore so I thought I would put it on my ticket and use it.
A gunsmith friend checked it over and found it visually sound in in both bore and action so it was sent to the proof house where it passed the view but failed proof when the barrel was blown completely off and in half two inches beyond the chamber the forend wouldn't have held the pressure so I would been injured was it worth the £30-00 cost to proof test it?
How much value do you put on your hand or fingers say for arguments sake £10-00 a finger or £30-00 a hand?
Jeff

Fronteria, do you know if your carbine had previously been saw cut?
I got my fingers burned (figuratively speaking) on a MH MkII Artilery Carbine I bought from a stall at the Antique and Classic Fair at Bisley a few years ago. The gun wasn't fabulous, but it looked the part and the bore was nice and firing pin in tact. I forked over the requisite amount and took my purchase home. Over the next few months I collected all the stuff together to re-load for it and once I'd done that I got it put on my ticket for use. The first shot I fired was a light load and went off well enough. All seemed well untill I came to eject the empty case; it was stuck fast. After alot of hammering and swearing I got the case out and saw a strange ridge accross the case neck that looked like the negative impression of a groove cut in the chamber. Sure enough, the carbine had been saw cut in the past right at the front of the nox form to make it a D.P. rifle. What some one had then done was weld a half washer in the cut and smooth off the weld on the outside. I have to say externally the job was very good and it was impossible to tell it had been done. I think the only thing that prevented that washer blowing out was the case. If it had been cut further up the barrel I recon it could have burst, or at least blown the washer out vertically.
So when I look at a MH now I always check the top, internal surface of the chamber with a small dentist's mirror.