Webley Mark 3 dioptre PH16M fixing bolts?

[Mr Pusk]

I bought a Webley Mark 3 (third series, #191xx circa 1959 I think) a few months back. It's drilled for a dioptre sight, which I believe would properly have been the Parker-Hale PH16M.

A sight has clearly been fitted at one time, as there's a sight-base-shaped mark in the blueing, but it wasn't there when I acquired the rifle, which had clearly seen better days. To cut the story short, it has taken a bit of work, but nothing too complicated or technical, to cheer it up and it's looking really quite nice now. Nice enough for me to have been keeping an eye open for a replacement PH16M.

I have at last managed to find one, but there's no mention of it coming with the bolts to fix it to the rifle! Could anyone tell me the vital statistics (thread details, length etc) of these please? I'm assuming that the holes were tapped for whatever PH supplied with the original sight.

Thanks for any leads.

[Troubledshooter]

I bought a Webley Mark 3 (third series, #191xx circa 1959 I think) a few months back. It's drilled for a dioptre sight, which I believe would properly have been the Parker-Hale PH16M.

A sight has clearly been fitted at one time, as there's a sight-base-shaped mark in the blueing, but it wasn't there when I acquired the rifle, which had clearly seen better days. To cut the story short, it has taken a bit of work, but nothing too complicated or technical, to cheer it up and it's looking really quite nice now. Nice enough for me to have been keeping an eye open for a replacement PH16M.

I have at last managed to find one, but there's no mention of it coming with the bolts to fix it to the rifle! Could anyone tell me the vital statistics (thread details, length etc) of these please? I'm assuming that the holes were tapped for whatever PH supplied with the original sight.

Thanks for any leads.

You've done well to find a PH16M sight, as they are harder to find than the PH17B which is the alternative sight for the Mk.3 and utilizes the same fixing base.
I can't find any info on the screw sizes at the moment, but someone else might come up with the answer.
I have a spare 16M and 17B but no screws for either.

[Mikeymoo]

I'm not 100 per cent certain but I think they are 4BA bolts......I bought some last year.....I can find out if I take one back to the place I bought them....if that helps ?

[Mr Pusk]

Thanks both of you. Yes, the 16M wasn't easy to find. Mikeymoo - thanks for the offer. If it is no trouble, yes please, but let's give it a few days to see if someone has the data to hand. If push comes to shove I have a local-ish gunsmith who should be able to work it out from the holes, but it would be a lot easier if I could just ask for exactly what I need!

[AC99]

I have a couple of ribbed-stocked mk3's fitted with PH16M aperture sights and the fitting bolts appear to be 4BA. I cannot find my 4BA die (mislaid!) to confirm this but I have a box of assorted BA nuts and bolts and the sight fitting bolt fits one of the BA nut exactly, so I am pretty certain the bolts are 4BA.
Aubrey

[Troubledshooter]

I have a couple of ribbed-stocked mk3's fitted with PH16M aperture sights and the fitting bolts appear to be 4BA. I cannot find my 4BA die (mislaid!) to confirm this but I have a box of assorted BA nuts and bolts and the sight fitting bolt fits one of the BA nut exactly, so I am pretty certain the bolts are 4BA.
Aubrey

I have now found out the fixing screws are 4BA as stated, but I don't know the important bit, which is the length, so if you have one to hand, the exact length would be useful to the OP.

[Mr Pusk]

Many thanks for the info. It looks like CS 4BA then, and if anyone could work out the bolt length please my joy would be complete!

[AC99]

Many thanks for the info. It looks like CS 4BA then, and if anyone could work out the bolt length please my joy would be complete!

The threaded length (up to the shoulder) is 12 mm.

[Mr Pusk]

The threaded length (up to the shoulder) is 12 mm.

Ah ha! Which sounds like half an inch in old money, or close enough. Very many thanks.

[AC99]

I forgot to mention, but I am sure you know, that a serrated (shake-proof) washer fits under each bolt head.

[Mr Pusk]

I forgot to mention, but I am sure you know, that a serrated (shake-proof) washer fits under each bolt head.

I didn't know, thanks. Just an ordinary shake-proof washer? How does it cope with the countersink, or does it just bend itself into a roughly conical shape?

EDIT: and is the serrated bit on the inside, or the outside, of the washer?

[AC99]

The serrations are on the inside of the washer and the bolt is not countersunk it is cheese-head ie square shoulders and slotted for a bladed screwdriver.
Aubrey

[Mr Pusk]

The serrations are on the inside of the washer and the bolt is not countersunk it is cheese-head ie square shoulders and slotted for a bladed screwdriver.
Aubrey

Aah! I see - I thought other suggestions were that it was countersunk but I may have misunderstood. I'll have a good look when the sight arrives to check what shape of bolt head it looks like. Many thanks. I'll report back...

EDIT: Having fiddled with the sale photo in a photo editing program it looks as if the recess is indeed deep enough for a cheese head bolt, but I think I'd better wait till the actual sight arrives before ordering anything to be on the safe side.

[Troubledshooter]

Aah! I see - I thought other suggestions were that it was countersunk but I may have misunderstood. I'll have a good look when the sight arrives to check what shape of bolt head it looks like. Many thanks. I'll report back...

EDIT: Having fiddled with the sale photo in a photo editing program it looks as if the recess is indeed deep enough for a cheese head bolt, but I think I'd better wait till the actual sight arrives before ordering anything to be on the safe side.

I thought the fixing screws were countersunk, but it's so long since I actually removed or fitted one, I stand corrected by AC99.

[T 20]

I thought the fixing screws were countersunk, but it's so long since I actually removed or fitted one, I stand corrected by AC99.

I've just dug one out of my spares box this morning and can confirm that the screws are recessed not countersunk.


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All the best Mick